Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

marginalrevolution.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 263 posts

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#201

Post by Talanes »

burmanm wrote: post #136
unethical_ban wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Now the working class has only one supporter, the Russian government. They have only one enemy, the Russian government.

> They have only one enemy, the Russian government. Do you think layman thinks the friend is the person who punishes them without them doing anything wrong? I find that seriously difficult to believe. Think about it yourself. You go to a nightclub and then the doorman says only you're not allowed, because your friends who just went in said you're not wanted. Do you still consider them as your friends and just think i…

I don't think that's the best example for your point: the doorman and your friends are collaborating together, not adversaries who's fight is affecting you. Anger would rightly be directed at everyone involved.

The better example is you go to a nightclub and the doorman won't let you in because he says your friends were there being dicks earlier. Do you go and chew out your friends or get angry with the man stopping your night for something you didn't even do?

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#202

Post by awillen »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #196
moralestapia wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a Russian in America gets hurt and goes to a hospital, should it be denied medical attention? Where do you draw the line, actually? If I'm not Russian but my parents are, should I be sanctioned as well? Again, where do you draw the line? If you happened to be at Russia, would you be okay if everyone denied their services to you? If your country got involved into a conflict, and you don't even live there anymore, a…

You seem to be confused about the moral weight of being temporarily banned in gaming and sports tournaments to unprovoked invasion and warfare. They aren't equivalent. Your questions are just absurd slippery slope fallacies that I won't give the dignity of answering, and you should be a little embarrassed about using that technique in a good faith discussion. Which article in the UN link that you sent would categoriz…

But this is banning someone who has actively spoken against the war. If you're a Russian doing that, you're exposing yourself to danger in the name of doing the right thing.

This isn't someone who was caught up in broader sanctions, like the innocent Russians whose life savings are being demolished. That's terrible, but in the broader context it is understandable and necessary. This is someone being specifically targeted for his nationality despite the fact - and this is the key differentiator - that doing so in no way does any damage to Russia.

You want to harm Russia? Treat anti-war Russians well. Show that the world isn't blindly taking action out of anger, but rather doing so in a targeted way to harm Putin and the Russian government. Russians who are speaking out against the war are good for Ukraine and the rest of the world, and they're bad for Putin. It makes no sense to punish them.

There's certainly a gray area for Russians who don't comment - they could be pro-war, or they could be reasonably afraid for their safety - but for Russians who say "In my view what we are doing is very wrong from both a moral view and practical view," punishment is counterproductive.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#203

Post by lupire »

jjgreen wrote: post #187
roveo wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is incorrect. Electoral rating of Putin (as of 2021) is around 30%. The central election committee will just declare the results that Putin wants. People in the West who live in (relatively) democratic countries just go around saying "Russians elected him" without actually understanding what living under an autocratic rule is like. Putin never won a free and fair election. He persecuted his opponents, denied the…

The electoral rating of someone outside an election is hardly relevant, it only matters on election day. On that day (in 2018) the result was (according to [1]), 77% (56M) in favour of Putin. The second candidate got 11.9% (8.6M). No doubt this guy is a narcissistic deranged dwarf, but are you suggesting he faked 48M votes? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Russian_presidential_elec...

Why do you think he didn't fake 48M votes?

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#204

Post by thway0987 »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #198
thway0987 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is in reaction to a much greater moral outrage: thousands of dead Ukrainian civilians because of an unprovoked Russian invasion. No, this is racism and intolerance under a thin guise of outrage. We are talking about targeting individuals who bear zero responsibility for what people claim they are outraged about. The sole reason these individuals are targeted is because of their nationality. This is cancel cult…

Like I said - you can ban none, some, or all Russian participants. That is just simple logic. If you ban some participants, you harm the integrity of the competition by subjective criteria. If you ban none, you are failing to impose a cost for Russian war crimes. It's an awful situation for everyone involved and the best situation would be for an immediate cessation of hostilities and military withdrawal so the ban c…

> you are failing to impose a cost for Russian war crimes.

Isn't the simple logic that the people who should bear the cost of war crimes are those who commit these war crimes?

> It's an awful situation for everyone involved and the best situation would be for an immediate cessation of hostilities and military withdrawal so the ban can be lifted.

Not only that, but the immediate cessation of hostilities and military withdrawal would be better for everyone even if there were no ban. Aside from a few deranged hawks in the Russian government I can't see how this conflict is good for anyone, Russian or not.

> this is simply chess and nobody is dying.

And the ban does nothing that would influence Putin's decisions. The economic sanctions might change his attitude (only time will tell). A ban of Russian chess players won't. Sanctions are a tool to force Putin to the negotiation table. Pointless actions like this are only harming people with no influence or responsibility on the conflict.

> On the other hand, thousands of civilians are dead, families are divided, and there is real hardship.

This war is dreadful, and I would like (without much hope) that Putin and those responsible for it respond for their crime. I just don't see how imposing hardships (however less strong they may be) on people unrelated to the conflict has any bearing on this.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#205

Post by ncann »

slg wrote: post #181
postalrat wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So there is no reason Alexander Grischuk should comment about the conflict. He has nothing to gain and everything to lose.

It is questionable morally to only comment on this situation in a way designed to personally benefit you.

It's bad when you word it like that, but change it to "in a way designed to prevent you and your loved ones from great harm" and suddenly it's very understandable.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#206

Post by throwaway5752 »

awillen wrote: post #202
throwaway5752 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You seem to be confused about the moral weight of being temporarily banned in gaming and sports tournaments to unprovoked invasion and warfare. They aren't equivalent. Your questions are just absurd slippery slope fallacies that I won't give the dignity of answering, and you should be a little embarrassed about using that technique in a good faith discussion. Which article in the UN link that you sent would categoriz…

But this is banning someone who has actively spoken against the war . If you're a Russian doing that, you're exposing yourself to danger in the name of doing the right thing. This isn't someone who was caught up in broader sanctions, like the innocent Russians whose life savings are being demolished. That's terrible, but in the broader context it is understandable and necessary. This is someone being specifically tar…

I was against the war in Iraq 20 years ago. I am still ashamed of it, and as an American I bear some shared culpability for it. I would have understood bans and boycotts and would have been at peace even if I were personally impacted. It would have been immeasurably less than what the hundreds of thousands of innocent, dead Iraqis suffered. I think Tyler Cowen is more concerned about this than Grischuk. I wonder why.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#207

Post by jjgreen »

lupire wrote: post #203
jjgreen wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The electoral rating of someone outside an election is hardly relevant, it only matters on election day. On that day (in 2018) the result was (according to [1]), 77% (56M) in favour of Putin. The second candidate got 11.9% (8.6M). No doubt this guy is a narcissistic deranged dwarf, but are you suggesting he faked 48M votes? [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_Russian_presidential_elec...

Why do you think he didn't fake 48M votes?

That would be an astonishing feat, just logistically. Do you have evidence of fraud on that scale?

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#208

Post by HeyZuess »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #198
thway0987 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is in reaction to a much greater moral outrage: thousands of dead Ukrainian civilians because of an unprovoked Russian invasion. No, this is racism and intolerance under a thin guise of outrage. We are talking about targeting individuals who bear zero responsibility for what people claim they are outraged about. The sole reason these individuals are targeted is because of their nationality. This is cancel cult…

Like I said - you can ban none, some, or all Russian participants. That is just simple logic. If you ban some participants, you harm the integrity of the competition by subjective criteria. If you ban none, you are failing to impose a cost for Russian war crimes. It's an awful situation for everyone involved and the best situation would be for an immediate cessation of hostilities and military withdrawal so the ban c…

> Like I said - you can ban none, some, or all Russian participants.

I can understand sanctions, they specifically target the country. I can understand sanctions against individuals who are supporting Putin like the oligarchs. I can understand cutting financial, business ties as they specifically target the country.

It starts to get difficult based on the criteria of nationality, there are a variety of reasons to ban people from Israel, Iran, Saudi, United States, and a bucket full of others. Many countries are involved in human rights abuses, military occupation, questionable politics etc. Should all their citizens suffer because of what their country's are involved in.

I applaud your stance, I don't discount it as being objective. But Alexander Grischuk, he is not Russia and we should think about the motives and reasons why such bans should be in place and just because their "homeland" is doing something doesn't mean they are. Imagine carte blanche banning people like Yeonmi Park from events because she is from North Korea.

Here's a bit of irony, Russian athletes are banned from competing in the Winter Paralympics which is based in a country know for it questionable human rights abuses and political stances including that against Taiwan and Hong Kong. It is a very difficult situation with Ukraine and I feel this fits into a situation where there are no correct answers.

There are reasons to ban then, but is it the right thing to do.

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#209

Post by inkyoto »

throwaway5752 wrote: post #196
moralestapia wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a Russian in America gets hurt and goes to a hospital, should it be denied medical attention? Where do you draw the line, actually? If I'm not Russian but my parents are, should I be sanctioned as well? Again, where do you draw the line? If you happened to be at Russia, would you be okay if everyone denied their services to you? If your country got involved into a conflict, and you don't even live there anymore, a…

You seem to be confused about the moral weight of being temporarily banned in gaming and sports tournaments to unprovoked invasion and warfare. They aren't equivalent. Your questions are just absurd slippery slope fallacies that I won't give the dignity of answering, and you should be a little embarrassed about using that technique in a good faith discussion. Which article in the UN link that you sent would categoriz…

You do realise that Grischuk is a Ukranian surname, don't you? As well as the fact that Grischuk's first wife was Ukranian and his current wife is of the half-Russian, half-Ukranian descent?

Re: Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

#210

Post by [deleted] »

moralestapia wrote: post #118

I am always deeply disappointed with how little civic and ethical values the average person has left. Whenever the common narrative finds a way to blame something or someone, the collective dehumanizes the target in a way that's quite terrifying, actually. People love to parrot about how "dictators are bad", "hitler was bad", etc, but when they find themselves in trivial situations where they have to show what they'r…

[deleted]
Post reply on HN