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Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

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Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#201

Post by syki »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #123
Loic wrote: post #53

My personal opinion: All this Ukraine stuff is also supported by China. I bet they are ready to buy Russian oil and gas to compensate even if this costs them more than getting them from the open market. Why? Because this is a wonderful test drive to check how the West (sorry for the approximation) is reacting to a country theoretically supported by the West being invaded by another one. For me, the next one on the li…

> All this Ukraine stuff is also supported by China Tolerated is a better word. There was ample ex ante evidence that the offensive was to be delayed until after the Olympics. And Russia being more beholden to Beijing as an energy supplier is certainly not bad. But supporting separatism, in any form, isn’t great for Beijing. And China has relations with Ukraine. Huawei has contracts. And China buys Ukrainian weapons.

Some Russians view Ukraine as legitimately part of Russia. China views Taiwan as part of China. China also wishes to garner as much support as possible for its desired takeover of Taiwan. The recent agreement between Russia and China spells out each country’s respective views on these matters. They are in agreement with each other.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#202

Post by dathinab »

Loic wrote: post #53

My personal opinion: All this Ukraine stuff is also supported by China. I bet they are ready to buy Russian oil and gas to compensate even if this costs them more than getting them from the open market. Why? Because this is a wonderful test drive to check how the West (sorry for the approximation) is reacting to a country theoretically supported by the West being invaded by another one. For me, the next one on the li…

It's not a good test drive.

The situation around Taiwan is fundamentally different and can't be compared.

The US or even EU just care soso about Ukraine. The lost of trust of partners, lost face and potential follow up actions and consequences are things they care about more then the Ukraine itself. Hence why they didn't get too much involved in recent years.

But at least the US cares _a lot_ about Taiwan and the EU should too.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#203

Post by DeathArrow »

_ph_ wrote: post #11
raxxorrax wrote: post #2

That is not remotely pulling the plug. This is "thinking about it" again. They already stopped accreditation a few weeks ago, otherwise it would already transport gas as the pipeline is already filled. They just say that they have officially stopped the process which they more or less already did. I think in a year it might come online again if the news cycle is on another topic. Overall it will be much more expensiv…

It is dead for all purposes unless the political climate changes radically. Whatever the Russian plans for a gas supplier to Germany were, they are limited to what the existing pipelines can deliver. I hope, we can reduce the dependency on Russian gas quickly, even if it means the additional effort of shipping LNG from the US or other sources. Mid-term it should be highest priority to get rid of fossil fuels as quick…

>Mid-term it should be highest priority to get rid of fossil fuels as quick as possible.

This line of thinking double prices to gas, natural gas and electricity in the last year. Please stop it!

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#204

Post by fsh »

michaelt wrote: post #194
hannasanarion wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And for a home heater, 80% of the heat from the gas you burn goes up the chimney. Larger energy capture devices can be more efficient. One highly-efficient fuel burning plant providing power to a hundred thousand electric resistive heaters can produce more useful heat per unit fuel than a hundred thousand small-scale self-maintained home furnaces.

You're both wrong. Combined cycle power plants can be 64% efficient [1] at turning heat into electricity. And if that power goes on to run a heat pump, 1 watt of electric power can deliver 3-4 watts of heating. And modern gas combi boilers can be 92-98% efficient [2]. The days of people throwing away 80% of the energy they pay for are long gone. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combined_cycle_power_plant [2] https:/…

Could you give some examples for nuclear power plants that are using a combined cycle turbine? I was under the impression that the operating temperatures of BWRs or PWRs are nowhere near high enough for that.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#205

Post by DeathArrow »

_ph_ wrote: post #58
zx85wes wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been dead for a very long time. It's a carrot that Russia was never going to get. If Scholz is smart (which I doubt) he'll restart/keep open the nuclear power plants and cut taxes on gas/electricity for households to neutralise the price hikes.

Nuclear plants are not a real replacement to gas. First of all, a lot of gas gets used for heating - nuclear isn't useful there. Then it is used for providing flexible power, to ramp up and down as quickly as possible to follow the production of renewables. Only a small fraction of the gas goes into "base load" usage. So the government might look into the nuclear power plants to dampen the price level for electricity…

Germany will kill its economy if they rely solely on so called "green energy".

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#206

Post by twelve40 »

darebak wrote: post #143
_ph_ wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, certainly not. First of all, Germany does care about the Ukraine. Both on a political level as on a social one. Many Germany have friendships with people from Ukraine. I myself have several in my wider social circle. There is also the European perspective. The cornerstone of European piece policy has been the integrity of state borders. This is now violated, so this is of very grave concern. Putin himself stated…

>The cornerstone of European piece policy has been the integrity of state borders. This is now violated, so this is of very grave concern. Now? What about Kosovo* and to lesser degree other conflicts in ex-Yugoslavia? Germany even had an active role in that.

hypocricy is unreal

Montenegro gets to declare independence, but Republika Srpska doesn't because Serbs don't matter.

Kosovo must be recognized as an "independent country" right next to Albania, but Eastern Ukraine never.

South Sudan, Eritrea, the list of "approved" places that are permitted independence, goes on and on.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#207

Post by sunsetonsaturn »

_ph_ wrote: post #87
yostrovs wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Germany doesn't care about Ukraine. They have to look like they do. Once the Ukrainian issue settles down again like it did after 2014 and everyone in the west moves on to other things, Germany will simply push the start button and gas will flow.

No, certainly not. First of all, Germany does care about the Ukraine. Both on a political level as on a social one. Many Germany have friendships with people from Ukraine. I myself have several in my wider social circle. There is also the European perspective. The cornerstone of European piece policy has been the integrity of state borders. This is now violated, so this is of very grave concern. Putin himself stated…

> Many Germany have friendships with people from Ukraine. I myself have several in my wider social circle.

Not sure that's a good argument. Many in Germany also have friendships with people from Russia. Would that automatically mean that Germany has to support Russia? I doubt it.

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#208

Post by pjc50 »

hajile wrote: post #109
credit_guy wrote: post #45

Here's some quick numbers I just googled to understand the big picture. This pipeline has an annual capacity of 55 billion cubic meters. It's the same capacity as the Nord Stream 1, which is already in operation. If Germany was truly meaning business, they'd stop Nord Stream 1 the moment Russian boots enter Ukrainian territory. But let's leave that aside. 55 billion cubic meters translate to about 0.6 billion MWh. Th…

Nordstream 2 has sanctions against it in the US and has for several years now. Work on the pipeline stopped an hour or two before they were signed into law (by the allegedly pro-Russia Trump). Like Biden always does, he just ignored the bi-partisan sanctions passed by congress because it'll be too late by the time the courts get done (Biden subverting the system to help Russia get what they want) This is important be…

[citation needed]

If something were actually bipartisan, surely it would be over the filibuster threshold?

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#209

Post by littlestymaar »

nindalf wrote: post #184
mytailorisrich wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The issue between China (both PRC and Taiwan since they have the same claims) and the Philippines and Vietnam is with the South China Sea, namely the so-called "nine dash line" that includes areas also claimed by Vietnam and the Philippines. Interestingly, the Philippines were previously invaded and occupied by Spain, the US, and Japan but never China although one of their nearest neighbour... Likewise although there…

I notice you carefully avoided mention of Korea. Were you hoping no one caught that China has dominated Korea for centuries? Or that there were failed attempts to conquer Japan? Incompetence doesn’t equal a peacenik attitude.

You can't be serious are you? In a discussion about the history of Japan Korea and China, arguing that China was “the bad guy”?!

That being said, history is a poor proxy for future behavior: Japan is really unlikely to ever resume its aggressive expansionist policy, and it's not because China doesn't have a terrible track record of neighbors invasion that it will not start in this century. But that doesn't really excuse rewriting history…

Re: Germany shelves Nord Stream 2 pipeline

#210

Post by _0w8t »

Friday_ wrote: post #182
_0w8t wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Russia modernized its military with money they got from selling gas and oil to Europe. Finally Germany admitted it and at least will not increase its dependence on Russian gas. I suspect if Germany would continued to develop its nuclear power rather than shutting it down, Russia would not have money for the new war. But then perhaps Germany was still grateful that Moscow allowed German reunification in 1990 and felt…

Im just saying that Germany will transition from state 1: Where it imports N amount of gas for cheap To state 2: where it imports N amount of gas expensive. Germany loses.

Yes. But this is just a cost of phasing out nuclear.
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