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The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

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Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#201

Post by bavell »

ZeroGravitas wrote: post #173
PathOfEclipse wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similarly, I don't see how "a well documented history of voter suppression" applies to increasing election security. I don't see that phrase in your first link, but I found it here: https://www.studioatao.org/post/understanding-the-u-s-govern... . From there I found a link to the evil Brian Kemp who dared to purge voter rolls! https://newrepublic.com/article/151858/americas-relentless-s... Many believe that one of th…

It appears we dont really have enough commonly accepted facts to have a fruitful conversation. The article you linked to talks about a lot of really horrible things, which I guess you agree with based on your linking to it and describing removing voters from the voters role for simply not voting in the previous election as no big deal? My big picture take is that democracy is good, and depriving people of votes is ba…

This sounds like a pretty dismissive response, I thought the parent raised some good points and I was hoping for a substantive discussion.

I've never understood why discussion around voting laws / election integrity is always either somehow racist or harmful. Seems like a lazy rebuttal against a strawman but I'm open to having my mind changed. Gonna need more than "democracy good, laws bad" though.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#202

Post by JTrilogy »

PathOfEclipse wrote: post #153
standardUser wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not asserting every single conservative fits this mold, or that you can't cherry-pick pundits who still play fair. But most of what the right wing is oriented around today is attacking the free press, stifling public education, making voting more difficult for urban citizens and pretending, loudly and constantly, that the last election was stolen. Where are the policy proposals? What major legislation did conserv…

Yes, and I'm asserting that 90+% of conservatives don't fit the mold you are casting. That was the point of my response. You can find crazies on both sides of the political aisle. One of trump's failures is that he isn't a good statesman and so failed to unite his own party, which caused a lot of failures in the legislative process as people like John McCain voted against him just because they hated him. I sincerely…

I don’t think the stats agree with you. A December 2021 poll by UMass Amherst showed only 21% of Republicans thought Biden’s election was legitimate[1] and 54% blamed the Jan6 violence on Democrats or the Capitol Police.[2]

The numbers are almost the same when broken up by ideology (conservative/independant/liberal) instead of party affiliation.

It’s not an issue of “crazies on both sides” — mainstream conservative views of recent events are detached from reality. There’s a pipeline of misinformation that starts with white nationalists, runs through InfoWars and their ilk, and eventually leads to OANN and Fox News. Keeping the audience’s attention is the top priority, so facts matter less than feelings.

[1]: https://polsci.umass.edu/toplines-and-crosstabs-december-202... [2]: https://polsci.umass.edu/sites/default/files/Jan6thAnniversa... (page 5)

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#203

Post by standardUser »

PathOfEclipse wrote: post #182
fortuna86 wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Similarly, I don't see how "a well documented history of voter suppression" applies to increasing election security Because "election security" - applied strategically and unequally (such as removing ballot boxes and voting stations in areas that are strongholds for your political opponents) is nothing but suppression tactics. Even voter ID laws, when applied only in places where gov ID is not common, can be weapon…

Please point out one person in power who suggests selectively applying voter ID laws in a state. If this discussion weren't partisan, your concern would simply translate to: "voter ID laws make sense; let's make sure the laws are written and enforced fairly", and not, "we can't do voter ID laws because it's possible to be unfair with them!" It's possible to be unfair with every law, and every law will have disparate…

You must not follow these issues closely, because there are many examples of states picking and choosing which IDs "count", with student IDs usually not counting under many Republican-crafted laws, but other IDs, such as gun licenses, being permitted. Further examples include reducing the hours/days of the offices that issue IDs and shrinking voter registration windows.

Roughly 11% of Americans don't have a valid government-issued ID and many of these individuals are lonely, ill, disabled, destitute, and are now being forced for the first time in their life to provide an ID to vote while at the same time their states are making it harder to get an ID. The Republican party is pushing these policies in almost every state, and prioritizing them over most other legislative concerns. This could not be less subtle.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#204

Post by unfocussed_mike »

SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #34
unfocussed_mike wrote: post #12

From the article: > That said, I do not think there is much evidence that misinformation has become more widespread, that this increase in misinformation is due to technological change, or that it is at the root of the political trends liberals are most angry about. I don't know if misinformation is at the root of the political trends liberals are most angry about , not least because it really depends on the author's…

It's interesting to consider, but the article references multiple political scientists who've studied conspiracy theories and concluded that they don't spread faster today. Is there a reason to believe they're wrong?

No (and it wasn't my intent to suggest that).

My initial instinct was in fact to say "yes, things are faster".

But then thinking about it, what struck me as interesting is that things that feel recent, in my head, like QAnon, are rooted in manufactured falsehoods that are already six and a half years old. So it's not necessarily the case.

It might be more interesting in some ways that QAnon hasn't already started a war. Though I genuinely see no particular reason why a conspiracy theory of its type could not; it's not that difficult to imagine in the context of human history.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#205

Post by ZeroGravitas »

bavell wrote: post #201
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It appears we dont really have enough commonly accepted facts to have a fruitful conversation. The article you linked to talks about a lot of really horrible things, which I guess you agree with based on your linking to it and describing removing voters from the voters role for simply not voting in the previous election as no big deal? My big picture take is that democracy is good, and depriving people of votes is ba…

This sounds like a pretty dismissive response, I thought the parent raised some good points and I was hoping for a substantive discussion. I've never understood why discussion around voting laws / election integrity is always either somehow racist or harmful. Seems like a lazy rebuttal against a strawman but I'm open to having my mind changed. Gonna need more than "democracy good, laws bad" though.

I'd suggest reading the article that they linked to, it says it in much more depth and detail than I could.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#206

Post by unfocussed_mike »

lariati wrote: post #50
SpicyLemonZest wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to consider, but the article references multiple political scientists who've studied conspiracy theories and concluded that they don't spread faster today. Is there a reason to believe they're wrong?

I think this partially a myopic view from young people. I remember being a little kid and watching a week long show about the JFK conspiracy on either one of the big 3 networks or PBS. Area 51 alien conspiracy is so ubiquitous I don't even know how you would track it 30 years ago. Alex Jones that is banned from youtube for all these crazy conspiracy theories he puts out use to be on practically nationally on AM radio…

> It is telling that the people who are weaponizing this concept of "misinformation" do not point it at all at Bigfoot researchers. What is more "misinformation" than the idea of giant apes running around the US forest? Of course, that doesn't count because there is no political gain to be had.

There's no political gain to be had on either side of the Bigfoot-in-the-forest argument, in fact. Or financial gain, or notoriety, or kudos. Which is why it's really not particularly telling.

It's just a fringe belief.

Misinformation matters when its intent is to undermine democracy or governance in the public good, undermine civic or civil society, create an "other" that can be attacked, create a pretext for war or social unrest or vigilantism etc.

I don't think people who believe in Bigfoot really fit the pattern. Nor do Flat-Earthers. Though this kind of belief is an indicator of the kind of credulity that led to the huge traction gained by the Comet Ping Pong Pizzagate story and the current omniconspiracy of antivax/QAnon/stolen election/5G/Great Reset/Schwab/Soros/Gates Foundation etc.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#207

Post by feurio »

lnxg33k1 wrote: post #195
feurio wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Neither is it exclusive to the woke, or anyone else. What I would really like to see is a concrete example, which so far everyone has declined to give. It's customary to provide some actual evidence to back up claims. "Your honor, the defendant killed the victim in cold blood" "I see, proceed with your evidence" "Meh, go find it for yourself."

But the judge, the prosecutor and the lawyers are all paid to give the judge stuff, we're here having a conversation, but I am not sure what kind of proof do you want and what should we do, like it's not that newspapers write article about wokes being wokes, just maybe go around on twitter or go on twitter and write something controversial like "#FuckBLM" and see what comes at you, not sure what do you want or I mean…

But why would I go onto Twitter and say that, unless I was a massive racist?

And why, as a doughty protector of free speech would I not be perfectly fine with anyone using their own right of freedom of speech to reply to me? Robustly.

Is it just that you want freedom without consequences? Because you're a racist? No accusing - just "asking questions".

You gave me one link - to Wikipedia, which you then seem to have an issue with the definition provided therein. And no examples. Still no examples.

Here's a link for you - about the most sensible thing I can find about woke from Oliver Dowden, Chairman of the UK Conservative party who has been talking to right wing "think tanks" (lobbying groups) in the US this week. Well, actually not him, but it might as well be. I particularly like the bit where he refuses to define what woke is - seems to be all the range. Enjoy:

https://twitter.com/mattgreencomedy/status/14936111188996956...

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#208

Post by unfocussed_mike »

cryptoboy2283 wrote: post #75
lariati wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this partially a myopic view from young people. I remember being a little kid and watching a week long show about the JFK conspiracy on either one of the big 3 networks or PBS. Area 51 alien conspiracy is so ubiquitous I don't even know how you would track it 30 years ago. Alex Jones that is banned from youtube for all these crazy conspiracy theories he puts out use to be on practically nationally on AM radio…

Jones was not a problem for all these platforms for many years, until recent events.

I think he's always been a problem (his Sandy Hook crisis actor lies got him into at least a little difficulty with the platforms) but his problematic nature has always fit within free speech, because he generally knows how to dial it back just inside those boundaries.

Likewise with David Icke or the more self-limiting lunacy of Kate Shemirani; these people it's better not to worry about.

Rudy Giuliani or MTG? Maybe worth worrying about because they can tip things over into riots.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#209

Post by guelo »

PathOfEclipse wrote: post #151
ZeroGravitas wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does "more election security" mean less black people voting? I mean the Republican party has argued in court that it should be legal for them to prevent black democrats from voting as long as it targets them as Democrat voters, rather than by race, so it's not like this is a big secret conspiracy or anything. https://www.aclu.org/other/oppose-voter-id-legislation-fact-...

Thomas Sowell has been debunking the "disparate outcome means racism" fallacy for decades. I wish more people were listening. He's the most underrated genius of his time. https://www.amazon.com/Discrimination-Disparities-Thomas-Sow... In short, if voter ID laws cause some groups of people to vote less than others, that doesn't make the law discriminatory or make the law bad. Scanning over this ACLU article, I see not…

By what metric is there not enough security? If we go by documented fraud then there's no problem. If we go by the ability of powerful sore losers to bend the system to their will then, again, things seem fine.

Re: The “misinformation problem” seems like misinformation

#210

Post by epgui »

fortuna86 wrote: post #166
epgui wrote: post #148

> I do not think there is much evidence that misinformation has become more widespread, that this increase in misinformation is due to technological change, or that it is at the root of the political trends liberals are most angry about. If anything, people seem to be better-informed than in the past — which is what you would expect because our information technology has gotten better [...] This kind of framing makes…

> If anything, people seem to be better-informed than in the past [citation needed] more information =/ better informed, the same way drinking from a firehose doesn't allow you to ingest more water than drinking slowly from a glass. This point missed ironically by a website called "slowboring.com"

Hehe I really love the firehose visual, and I think it's quite apt... Except that there's also a "pollution" aspect to information.

If you consume enough misinformation, it doesn't matter who you are or how smart you are, it's going to affect the way you think. Just as in terms of physical fitness, "you are what you eat", in terms of mental fitness, "you are what you read/hear/consume".

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