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How to know if you’re addicted

psyche.co

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Re: How to know if you’re addicted

#201

Post by phs318u »

sneak wrote: post #192
phs318u wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as an addict in recovery, this definition is the most practically useful. It’s step 1 of every 12-step program. If you really want to stop doing something, and are trying your hardest to not do that thing, and yet despite that desire you feel an overwhelming compulsion to do that thing, even though you rationally know the consequences for you or others will be bad - that’s addiction. Or as I once put it to m…

> Speaking as an addict in recovery, this definition is the most practically useful. It’s step 1 of every 12-step program. Note also that 12 step programs are pseudoscience/ineffective and are, when measured, no more or less successful at helping people beat addiction than not using a 12 step program, so take that endorsement with a grain of salt.

Forgot to add this in my other response (where I addressed effectiveness).

With respect to your characterisation of 12-steps as pseudoscience, I can only state that it’s a program designed to change your thinking and by so doing, trigger neurological changes or divert previously default responses. In that sense it’s in the same category as the many and varied approaches used in the field of psychology (eg CBT, DBT etc). Is psychology a pseudoscience in your view?

Re: How to know if you’re addicted

#202

Post by lelanthran »

dylan604 wrote: post #80
lelanthran wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not being able to stop for a week shows you are an addict. But being able to stop for week doesn't really show you aren't one. Most addicts do quit for weeks or even months at a time. Correct. "Not doing $X anymore" doesn't mean you aren't an addict. "Being able to turn on/turn off doing $X" means you aren't an addict. If you haven't had a drink in years, but having a single one means that you now cannot do without…

"There's no such thing as an ex-Marine", so are Marines addicts?

If X implies Y, it is not necessary for Y to imply X.

"There is no such thing as an ex-FOO" does not imply that it is true for any value of FOO..

Re: How to know if you’re addicted

#203

Post by kar5pt »

sneak wrote: post #192
phs318u wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Speaking as an addict in recovery, this definition is the most practically useful. It’s step 1 of every 12-step program. If you really want to stop doing something, and are trying your hardest to not do that thing, and yet despite that desire you feel an overwhelming compulsion to do that thing, even though you rationally know the consequences for you or others will be bad - that’s addiction. Or as I once put it to m…

> Speaking as an addict in recovery, this definition is the most practically useful. It’s step 1 of every 12-step program. Note also that 12 step programs are pseudoscience/ineffective and are, when measured, no more or less successful at helping people beat addiction than not using a 12 step program, so take that endorsement with a grain of salt.

That's not true. Newer research shows AA is the most effective way to quit drinking https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/03/alcoholics-an...

Re: How to know if you’re addicted

#204

Post by sneak »

phs318u wrote: post #201
sneak wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Speaking as an addict in recovery, this definition is the most practically useful. It’s step 1 of every 12-step program. Note also that 12 step programs are pseudoscience/ineffective and are, when measured, no more or less successful at helping people beat addiction than not using a 12 step program, so take that endorsement with a grain of salt.

Forgot to add this in my other response (where I addressed effectiveness). With respect to your characterisation of 12-steps as pseudoscience, I can only state that it’s a program designed to change your thinking and by so doing, trigger neurological changes or divert previously default responses. In that sense it’s in the same category as the many and varied approaches used in the field of psychology (eg CBT, DBT et…

The effectiveness of a treatment can be measured, and results observed.

CBT is effective. 12 step programs are not.

Re: How to know if you’re addicted

#205

Post by sneak »

hn_version_0023 wrote: post #198
sneak wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Speaking as an addict in recovery, this definition is the most practically useful. It’s step 1 of every 12-step program. Note also that 12 step programs are pseudoscience/ineffective and are, when measured, no more or less successful at helping people beat addiction than not using a 12 step program, so take that endorsement with a grain of salt.

They seem to help a lot of people. It helped my father, and if I’d continued my ways, it might have had the opportunity to help me. You may see pseudoscience, but I see broken people without a safety net finding empathy and a healthier group to spend their time with. I don’t know if you’ve experienced addiction yourself, but your comment comes across as woefully dismissive of something that helps lots of people .

That's the thing: many things are both a) popular and b) seem to help.

These are not useful tools for scientifically measuring effectiveness, however. This is why we have clinical trials and things like double-blind studies.

There is an overarchingly popular human pastime that underlies these 12 step programs' philosophies that a majority of human beings on Earth believe will result in improving your life, but that doesn't make it true.

Re: How to know if you’re addicted

#206

Post by sneak »

phs318u wrote: post #200
sneak wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Speaking as an addict in recovery, this definition is the most practically useful. It’s step 1 of every 12-step program. Note also that 12 step programs are pseudoscience/ineffective and are, when measured, no more or less successful at helping people beat addiction than not using a 12 step program, so take that endorsement with a grain of salt.

I can only speak of my experience. I first found the fellowship 24 years ago. In that time I’ve seen hundreds of people come and go. Only 10 people I know who were around in 1998 are still in the program. Of those, 9 have been in successful recovery for many years (10 years for me after walking away for several years and relapsing). The tenth has a history of relapsing every few years. I’d call that a remarkable succ…

> That is that the belief that addiction is curable. It isn’t. It’s a lifelong condition which therefore requires lifelong treatment.

This concept is at odds with modern psychiatric medicine and scientific inquiry, and is likely objectively false, yet persists as a core tenet of 12 step programs, seemingly beyond debate.

Re: How to know if you’re addicted

#207

Post by phs318u »

sneak wrote: post #204
phs318u wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Forgot to add this in my other response (where I addressed effectiveness). With respect to your characterisation of 12-steps as pseudoscience, I can only state that it’s a program designed to change your thinking and by so doing, trigger neurological changes or divert previously default responses. In that sense it’s in the same category as the many and varied approaches used in the field of psychology (eg CBT, DBT et…

The effectiveness of a treatment can be measured, and results observed. CBT is effective. 12 step programs are not.

For someone who has made a lot of absolute claims, you have not provided any references to back up your claims. Here's a recent study that directly refutes your claim.

https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/03/alcoholics-an...

Re: How to know if you’re addicted

#208

Post by phs318u »

kar5pt wrote: post #203
sneak wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Speaking as an addict in recovery, this definition is the most practically useful. It’s step 1 of every 12-step program. Note also that 12 step programs are pseudoscience/ineffective and are, when measured, no more or less successful at helping people beat addiction than not using a 12 step program, so take that endorsement with a grain of salt.

That's not true. Newer research shows AA is the most effective way to quit drinking https://med.stanford.edu/news/all-news/2020/03/alcoholics-an...

There are a few recent studies that clearly indicate we have barely scratched the surface in understanding both the neurological nature of addiction as well as the mechanisms by which programs like 12-steps work.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26306329/

"We explore the impact that the molecular neurobiological basis of the 12 steps can have on Reward Deficiency Syndrome (RDS) despite addiction risk gene polymorphisms... It begs the question as to whether "12 steps programs and fellowship" does induce neuroplasticity and continued dopamine D2 receptor proliferation despite carrying hypodopaminergic type polymorphisms"

Re: How to know if you’re addicted

#209

Post by phs318u »

sneak wrote: post #206
phs318u wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can only speak of my experience. I first found the fellowship 24 years ago. In that time I’ve seen hundreds of people come and go. Only 10 people I know who were around in 1998 are still in the program. Of those, 9 have been in successful recovery for many years (10 years for me after walking away for several years and relapsing). The tenth has a history of relapsing every few years. I’d call that a remarkable succ…

> That is that the belief that addiction is curable. It isn’t. It’s a lifelong condition which therefore requires lifelong treatment. This concept is at odds with modern psychiatric medicine and scientific inquiry, and is likely objectively false, yet persists as a core tenet of 12 step programs, seemingly beyond debate.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3506170/

"In individuals who are vulnerable to addiction, repetitive exposure to the agent induces long-lasting neuroadaptative changes that further promote drug-seeking behaviors and ultimately lead to persistent and uncontrolled patterns of use that constitute addiction. These neuroadaptive changes are the bases for tolerance, craving, and withdrawal and lead to a motivational shift.3 Motivation to drug-seeking behavior is initially driven by impulsivity and positive reward. In contrast, compulsivity and negative affect dominate the terminal stages of the pathology. Addictions are in a sense “end-stage” diagnoses because at the time diagnosis is made potentially irreversible neuroadaptative change have occurred—changes that were preventable at an early point of the trajectory of the illness."

Two key things are pointed out here: 1. not everyone is vulnerable to addiction, and 2. "addiction" as understood behaviourally, is an "end-stage" diagnosis of possible irreversible neuroadaptative changes".

Re: How to know if you’re addicted

#210

Post by pqs »

wpietri wrote: post #77
pqs wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I should try to not randomly browse the web for one week. I'm not sure whether I'm able. Ups. It is so easy to jus type Ctrl-T and then news.ycom TAB.

For me, a well-established habit can be different than addiction, but they're definitely related. What I look for is a) whether I'm using X to avoid discomfort, and b) whether using X helps create or sustain that discomfort. As an example, I play casual computer games to take breaks. So popping open my current favorite can be a habit. But I've had friends addicted to WoW, such that they were spending enough time in i…

You are right. There is a spectrum between both. Since December, it has been harder than usual (nothing special, just too much stuff going on) and I use the net as an escape, but I think that I'm in this gray area where one must be alert. It is not addiction yet, but I should watch myself with a rather severe look and see if I can change the trend.
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