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The data are clear: The boys are not all right

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Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#201

Post by bluGill »

Beltalowda wrote: post #101
ok_dad wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Personally, I would love to quit working and take care of my family at home. I find much more joy in that than working a programming career. I think a lot of men have been conditioned to think we have to be the provider much like women have been conditioned to think they have to be a homemaker.

Indeed; how is it fair that men are "forced" to work and provide income (with all the stress associated for that, especially for low-earners) and are "forced" to miss out on their kids? It seems to me that's just as much of an injustice as women being "forced" to stay at home. ("forced" in quotes as it's not strongly forced, but rather "forced" by expectations, prospects, etc.) I've long considered traditional gender…

Until a few generations ago everyone worked from home. The kids were with whichever parent or often extended family.

You lived on your farm or in your village. Both parents did work on the farm as needed. Dad was never far from home and did take the older kids to the fields.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#203

Post by awinter-py »

jimmyjazz14 wrote: post #143
awinter-py wrote: post #32

great book on this topic is friedan's feminine mystique (1963). She wrote about the spiritual crisis affecting a generation of young women who were more likely to be 'homemakers' than their mothers. worth reading at least the intro IMO for anyone who feels dissatisfied with their work / life / contribution not sure how yang made this his topic. my sense of his random walk is 'had a job at yahoo' -> future of work ->…

Did Andrew Yang work at Yahoo sure your not thinking of Jerry Yang?

oops you're right, no idea where I got that factoid

yang had a test prep company that got bought by kaplan, apparently, per wikipedia

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#204

Post by lotsofpulp »

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #190
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody has ever wanted to overload a cargo ship until it sinks but it seems like in the past ~10-15yr the idea of worthwhile risks even existing have become demonized except in the most abstract settings (math, finance, etc). In 1980 the guy that fixed a radio antenna in a blizzard because "what good is fall protection if I don't use it" got told he did a good job. Today he would be chewed out for taking unnecessary…

Even in finance, risk has become so socialised (thinking in particular of the wall street bailouts) that it's hard for an individual to take on a larger share of the risk for a larger reward even when he honestly wants to do so.

Gambling on options and crypto currency has only gotten easier over the years.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#205

Post by toomuchtodo »

frankbreetz wrote: post #144
johncessna wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> More U.S. men ages 18 to 34 are now living with their parents than with romantic partners. and > Research shows that one significant factor women look for in a partner is a steady job. As men’s unemployment rises, their romantic prospects decline. Unsurprisingly, according to a Pew Research Center analysis of data from 1960 to 2010, the proportion of adults without a college degree who marry plummeted from just ove…

More of all 18-34 year olds are staying with their parents, not just men[0], so this may be a problem of unavailable housing or some other non-gender specific problem. [0] https://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/censu...

Usual suspects. Student loan debt, lower wages, high cost of housing, all delaying household formation.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#206

Post by lph »

humanrebar wrote: post #180
lph wrote: post #46

Andrew Yang makes some good points in this piece, particularly about positive masculinity and role models. Whether fair or not, the perception that the left is hostile to men has driven recruitment for the far right, and that merits some reflection. But he's also really facile about underlying economic causes. It's easy to blame problems on "our culture has been broken by the wokes!", but many of the problems of youn…

> But he's also really facile about underlying economic causes. It's easy to blame problems on "our culture has been broken by the wokes!", but many of the problems of young men are not unique to them. Fewer women are entering college, also. Women are dropping out of the workforce, also. More young women are living with their parents, also. Is that because they lacked strong masculine role models? You're not wrong ,…

I disagree, and here's why: Andrew Yang is ignoring the elephant in the room. It's not just that the concerns I brought up are another factor, it's that they are by far the dominant factor in why young men are dropping out and discontent. At least in my opinion.

To use another analogy: it's like going to the ER for a sucking chest wound and being told you should reduce your cholesterol. They're not wrong, but this is probably not the most pressing concern.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#207

Post by zozbot234 »

lph wrote: post #184
fiftyfifty wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've coached high school sports teams, both boys and girls, for the last two decades. I've seen some of these trends unfold over the years with my student athletes. My observation is girls are just more motivated than boys, even for something fun like sports practices and workouts, girls in general will show up more consistently than boys. The teachers I've spoken to at the school where I coach have confirmed the sam…

I have two elementary-aged children, a boy and a girl. They fit the pattern you describe to a T, and I think most teachers' experience would agree. So anecdotally, the theory that (in general) boys need more nudging than girls from someone in their life in order to be successful rings true. But what would account for a modern change? Are there fewer people pushing, now? Are boys more resistant to it now, or maybe mor…

Because recent technical change heavily favors book learning over hands-on skills, which are more compelling to males.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#208

Post by vharuck »

jimbokun wrote: post #189
idealmedtech wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe it's reactionary attitudes like these (why can't we have a special club?) that make tech so hostile to women in the first place. If they feel better in a space that specifically caters to women, and if by them feeling better, they actually learn the skills, why should they not have those spaces? These are not mutually exclusive things!

Now try proposing a space that caters to men and helps them learn and feel better.

Not to be flippant, but have you seen somebody try this and fail or be stopped? What would be the purpose of the group? Why would it need to cater to men?

These aren't rhetorical questions. I'm genuinely asking.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#209

Post by UncleMeat »

babyshake wrote: post #102
UncleMeat wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this actually true? This feels a bit like a post-facto generalization from specific situations. "I was a nerd and didn't go on dates. Being a nerd got me into software and now I make a lot of money. Therefore people who are on the path to high earning are not getting dates." My experience has been that a lot of the stereotypical jocks ended up in finance and are doing quite well and that software is no longer domi…

A lot of popular kids and jocks end up in management in tech while the loners and kids of immigrants are the ones actually creating the software.

Even if this were true (jocks go into management and management is useless), it would be the opposite of what the parent was saying about the people on the path to high pay rarely having romantic relationships since management tends to pay well.

Re: The data are clear: The boys are not all right

#210

Post by UncleMeat »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #140
UncleMeat wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Further, I think it is largely undesirable for people in their late teens or early 20s to be living with romantic partners. Breakups are way more complicated when you also lose your housing.

People don't get good at stuff unless they practice At some point you need to just do these adult things in order to get good. Delaying doesn't change that much. Better to get the practice over with as soon as possible.

That's true. But moving in with somebody is high risk. You often need to practice at just being in a relationship and get good at that first.

What is the average number of romantic partners that a person lives with in their life? It probably isn't that high.

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