Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#201

Post by potatolicious » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 6:32 PM UTC

MisterPea wrote: post #127

bin_bash wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

what a poor comment. What would've been nice if you could've explained what I'm missing. For the record I work at a different big tech company and was given a massive sign-on bonus. I also have received an offer from Amazon in the past. I know how to read levels.fyi so I'm not sure what it is that I'm missing exactly.

If Amazon and a standard tech company both gave ~200k offers with a 100k base they would look like this: Amazon: 100k base, 250k stock over 4 years (5-15-40-40), ~175k sign-on over 2 years Other: 100k base, 400k stock over 4 years (25-25-25-25), ~25k sign-on immediately Essentially the lack of stock over the first 2 years is offset by the sign-on

I think the point is that (using your example) you can get a 100K base, 400K stock, and the 175K signon at a different company.

The point is that while Amazon may offer you a higher signon in lieue of equity, at other FAANGs the choice can be both.

FWIW I've seen recently (in the past year or so) non-AMZN FAANG sign-ons well north of $200K (split over 2 years), along with a top-of-line stock package that vests linearly.

Overall, AMZN's backloaded vesting schedule may be "evened out" via the use of generous signing bonuses, but ultimately is still uncompetitive with other FAANGs. More generally AMZN's TC - no matter which way you cut it - tends to trend lower than competing-tier peer companies.

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#202

Post by MisterPea » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 6:32 PM UTC

RussianCow wrote: post #162

MisterPea wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Amazon and a standard tech company both gave ~200k offers with a 100k base they would look like this: Amazon: 100k base, 250k stock over 4 years (5-15-40-40), ~175k sign-on over 2 years Other: 100k base, 400k stock over 4 years (25-25-25-25), ~25k sign-on immediately Essentially the lack of stock over the first 2 years is offset by the sign-on

What company is only giving $25k in signing bonuses? Everyone I know who works at a (non-Amazon) FAANG got significantly more than that.

For what role/company? A 200k offer implies SDE 1/2 and a 25k sign-on is probably median for that, even big tech. Of course there is Meta giving insane sign-on but for the most part it's around 25k

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#203

Post by outside1234 » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 6:35 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #192

munificent wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I received an offer that was 160 base, 325 cash bonus and 5% of my RSUs for my first year, putting my TC at ~510k. I don't understand the appeal of cash signing bonuses. This just seems to me like another way of saying you got hired for a $485k annual salary while giving Amazon the freedom to cut your salary a year from now by up to ~67%. Why give your future self that risk instead of looking for a higher base sala…

> Why give your future self that risk instead of looking for a higher base salary that is stickier over the long term? You're exactly right. Signing bonuses - and even equity compensation - are designed to lower your TC over time. The idea is that companies offer a high TC to entice you through the door, with the understanding that at the end of your 4 years your TC will drop precipitously but at that point you'd be…

This is exactly what is happening

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#204

Post by foobarian » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 6:35 PM UTC

azemetre wrote: post #142

hobo_mark wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Google started the same way: > Brin and Page filled the garage with desks made of old pine doors set on sawhorses, a turquoise shag carpet, and a Ping-Pong table. https://www.vanityfair.com/style/2014/04/sergey-brin-amanda-...

I mean there's nothing wrong with this. A solid wooden door is nearly the perfect desk size and width. I feel like the OP was being a little too drastic, there are many reasons to dislike Amazon but one being that Bezos used a door as a table is a little out there.

Honestly, a proper solid wooden door may well cost a lot more than a cheap folding table. Yes, missing the point, I know :-)

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#205

Post by MisterPea » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 6:35 PM UTC

potatolicious wrote: post #201

MisterPea wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If Amazon and a standard tech company both gave ~200k offers with a 100k base they would look like this: Amazon: 100k base, 250k stock over 4 years (5-15-40-40), ~175k sign-on over 2 years Other: 100k base, 400k stock over 4 years (25-25-25-25), ~25k sign-on immediately Essentially the lack of stock over the first 2 years is offset by the sign-on

I think the point is that (using your example) you can get a 100K base, 400K stock, and the 175K signon at a different company. The point is that while Amazon may offer you a higher signon in lieue of equity, at other FAANGs the choice can be both . FWIW I've seen recently (in the past year or so) non-AMZN FAANG sign-ons well north of $200K (split over 2 years), along with a top-of-line stock package that vests linea…

Hmm, maybe I'm just ignorant of what's out there, what company gives out 200k sign-on and a linear stock vest? I'm mostly using an example of an SDE 1/2 (hence 200k offer) and for the most part I've only seen Amazon give a sign-on that high and over 2 years. For Sr engineers, I've seen Amazon offers north of 700k sign-on split over 2 years

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#206

Post by pishpash » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 6:37 PM UTC

lhorie wrote: post #145

Judging from what an insider in the HR org told me, we're going to be hearing a lot of stories like this going forward. Apparently, Amazon scale is so large and their attrition rates are so bad that in some markets, every potentially qualified candidate has already applied and failed an interview, or previously worked at Amazon and quit. As the adage goes, necessity is the mother of invention and Amazon seems to be a…

At these bubble valuations and Fed funds rate going up I would hope cash is valued more.

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#207

Post by MattGaiser » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 6:37 PM UTC

lhorie wrote: post #145

Judging from what an insider in the HR org told me, we're going to be hearing a lot of stories like this going forward. Apparently, Amazon scale is so large and their attrition rates are so bad that in some markets, every potentially qualified candidate has already applied and failed an interview, or previously worked at Amazon and quit. As the adage goes, necessity is the mother of invention and Amazon seems to be a…

> every potentially qualified candidate has already applied and failed an interview, or previously worked at Amazon and quit.

A company so large as to literally run out of humans.

Happened with their warehouse workers too.

https://www.essence.com/news/amazon-burning-through-workers/

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#208

Post by munk-a » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 6:38 PM UTC

Kranar wrote: post #120

aantix wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agree. Looking at HN, Blind, Glassdoor, very rarely do I remember seeing an engineer that would openly state that they love working there.

Plenty of software developers would kill to work for Amazon, sure the work conditions and prestige is not as great as the other big companies but Amazon still pays pretty darn well. The big issue is the developers Amazon wants to hire are not the same as the developers who want to work there, so Amazon is basically paying a huge premium to attract people. That said let's not kid ourselves, the majority of people at A…

I don't know how well that impression is born out by the generally short tenures and increasing growth of base pay that we're observing. Lots of decently large tech firms pay well beyond Amazon's rates and manage to retain people for far longer - this move specifically seems to be highlighting that the compensation Amazon was offering was insufficient for the pain employees were being burdened with.

I do also think FAANG built up a reputation for inaccessibility to intermediate devs which gives them an air of prestige but also significantly impairs their hiring ability.

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#209

Post by vanusa » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 6:39 PM UTC

lhorie wrote: post #145

Judging from what an insider in the HR org told me, we're going to be hearing a lot of stories like this going forward. Apparently, Amazon scale is so large and their attrition rates are so bad that in some markets, every potentially qualified candidate has already applied and failed an interview, or previously worked at Amazon and quit. As the adage goes, necessity is the mother of invention and Amazon seems to be a…

As the adage goes, necessity is the mother of invention and Amazon seems to be at a point where it really needs to try everything under the sun to try to attract talent, given their extremely poor reputation.

So rather than address the problems that are giving rise to this extremely poor reputation and commensurate attrition rates -- the only "fix" that Amazon can think of is to offer people more cash so that the net experience becomes somewhat more palatable.

Re: Amazon more than doubles max base pay to $350k

#210

Post by vineyardmike » Mon, Feb 07, 2022, 6:39 PM UTC

mrandish wrote: post #166

dymk wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's only a scam if you assume the first year you work there you are as productive as the 3rd It's a scam when it's compared to how every other tech company does it. The standard is a 1 year cliff at which point you get 25%, then uniform vesting every quarter. > that you're not eligible for a bonus until you have been with the company for a full year for exactly this reason This is exactly the standard in tech as w…

> It's a scam when it's compared to how every other tech company does it. Often but not always. I worked as a senior exec in a near-FAANG, large public corp and at one point the board changed the equity comp of my level and up execs to a pretty complex formula that was significantly back-ended but also had possible multipliers in the event our stock metrics exceeded the avg stock metrics of a composite of several sim…

> the net-effect of the back-loaded vesting and soaring stock was that we all ended up holding for longer than we otherwise might have which ended up adding nearly another 100%.

+1. Every amazonian i know who stayed at the company a while had crazy good equity because of the holding and stock growth. The historically stable growth really encouraged people to stay longer, and internally people always talked about how much the stock was when they joined. I know plenty of people who cashed out their equity and got houses in seattle area, in cash. Hearing these stories as a young engineer, and old alike really makes you feel compelled to stay and see where it goes for you. If you're young, you want to get in for when it goes up (FOMO), and if you've been there, you want to stay because you've been so well rewarded, and waiting a little longer will get you a bit more money because of refreshes and growth.