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American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

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Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#201

Post by judge2020 »

TuringTest wrote: post #54

The web is broken. The original promise of client/server services was that the server would provide data on a universal open data format, and the USER AGENT (initially a web browser, but other kinds were expected) would process it in a format to the liking of the user, and satisfying their needs . Compare this to the current situation where the industry standard is that the servers do indeed provide data through some…

The reality is that every company wants to have things presented in the same way they're prepared, for the purposes of marketing. That's why web browsers with css are a thing at all - to allow a website to look exactly like what the developer/company behind it wants it to look like.

Why would any company provide data in a standard API so that users can use that data in a standard way? If there was an API for banking, Bank of America wouldn't be able to showcase a professional-esque design and Sofi wouldn't be able to showcase a cartoonish modern design to strengthen their image and attract customers. How do they then attract customers? Only by features and lower margins, which is the opposite of what would make them money.

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#202

Post by [deleted] »

R0b0t1 wrote: post #189
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been on the other side of this, defending against bots. Basically: Well-behaved and well-intentioned scraping bots are rare. You’d get a lot of users setting update rates to 60 seconds that did a new login every time and creating as much traffic as 1000 users. Then they’d release the script for integration with something people and suddenly you have 1000 people each creating 1000 times as many login requests as…

> Then of course there are people trying to make a business out of extracting your company’s data, If I can do this by hand there's no legal reason I can't do it by machine. You can try to defend against it, I guess, but the second you start impacting your obligations to someone else (like disabling their account after they paid you) you are in the wrong.

[deleted]

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#203

Post by kmeisthax »

jessriedel wrote: post #181
PragmaticPulp wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been on the other side of this, defending against bots. Basically: Well-behaved and well-intentioned scraping bots are rare. You’d get a lot of users setting update rates to 60 seconds that did a new login every time and creating as much traffic as 1000 users. Then they’d release the script for integration with something people and suddenly you have 1000 people each creating 1000 times as many login requests as…

Thanks much for the info. Why can't you just ignore API requests once it exceeds a threshold rate?

For the specific use-case of "badly written scrapers", this might be reasonable, but usually by the point when engineering needs to care about scrapers, other people at the company are involved and just view it as a service theft issue. i.e. "Why waste time and money forcing people to scrape fairly when we can just ban all scrapers?"

Not to mention, actually malicious traffic will find any non-Sybil criterion you use to enforce rate limits and work around it. "Enforce rate limits per User-Agent?" I'm now 10,000 different applications. "Enforce rate limits per IP address?" I'm now 10,000 different compromised residential IP addresses. At some point, distinguishing between well-behaved, buggy-but-legitimate, and outright malicious automated traffic is either impossible or too time-consuming. Upon which point you throw up your hands and say, "Screw it, everyone but Google or a browser is banned."

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#204

Post by Scoundreller »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #117
enos_feedler wrote: post #59

I wrote a scraper for Air Canada's aeroplan program a few years ago. I wanted to track my points in my own custom native app. I probably had $10,000 worth of points in my account. One day I logged in to find out my account had been deactivated on suspicions of fraud. After several lengthy phone calls with their team (including sending them the node.js script I was using), I was able to get my account restored. For th…

I’ve been on the other side of this, defending against bots. Basically: Well-behaved and well-intentioned scraping bots are rare. You’d get a lot of users setting update rates to 60 seconds that did a new login every time and creating as much traffic as 1000 users. Then they’d release the script for integration with something people and suddenly you have 1000 people each creating 1000 times as many login requests as…

> think of all of those StackOverflow scraping websites in Google

You don’t need to scrape stack overflow, you can just download a .zip

That’s one reason why people use it: they can’t just gate you off from the content you’ve created. You and others can (and will/do) have a copy of it all.

https://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/295508/download-sta...

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#205

Post by adrianba »

backtoyoujim wrote: post #110
Glyptodon wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I authorize an agent to act on my behalf in a particular way wouldn't they be considered and authorized as me? If I make a contract with Bob to mow my lawn, it's not like Bob's workers or employees have to sign the contract too. TPG shouldn't need to be party to the contract to be an agent of one of the contracted parties.

How does that logic apply to people that sublet rental spaces ?

Subletting isn't an agency relationship. It's not like tenants provide a service to landlords by occupying the property as well as paying rent.

Also, the law around real property including leases is different and more involved than straightforward contractual relationships.

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#206

Post by asxd »

atombender wrote: post #183
asxd wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm always kind of reminded of Louis C.K's old bit about how humans learned to literally fly , and it turns out the whole experience sucks.

Isn't the whole point of that bit that we've become spoiled and indifferent, to the point where we no longer appreciate how amazing and futuristic our world has become?

I think you're right, but it's hard to argue that flying is both an amazing human achievement and is also just the worst.

Edit: Wow, re-listening to the bit, my memory definitely failed me. Basically a rant on how we should be grateful that airline companies are even able to get a plane in the air. I think we can do better, personally.

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#207

Post by jrockway »

balls187 wrote: post #186

I can't see how American Airlines will prevail in preventing screen scraping. At best, they can prevent their point data from being transmitted and stored to TPG's servers. Screen Scraping is essentially interacting with the DOM extract information. American Airlines can't conceivably attempt to limit programmatic interaction with the DOM because that is a core component of how the web works including accessibility t…

I wouldn't put it past the court system to make web browsers ("user agents" as we called them back in the day) illegal accidentally. I'd be more surprised if they didn't, honestly.

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#208

Post by hlbjhblbljib »

KieranMac wrote: post #188

As an attorney who focuses in this area, I can say that the most interesting question is first where this case will be decided. Texas, and the Northern District of Texas in particular, has historically been the worst jurisdiction in the country for web scrapers to litigate. Southwest has a long history of litigating successfully there, including two cases from just last year. If TPG is going to win, first they'll nee…

I'm surprised more businesses don't ban all of Texas as customers to prevent any litigation happening there.

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#209

Post by jrockway »

bastardoperator wrote: post #164
chrismeller wrote: post #3

I honestly don’t know who to root for here. TPG is one of my favorite sites, but American is one of my favorite airlines.

You have a favorite Airline? I view them all with contempt given their poor business practices. Who's your favorite serial killer?

I've flown over half a million miles on American. They've been pretty nice to me every time. I have nothing to dislike about them.

Re: American Airlines and The Points Guy are suing each other

#210

Post by tiahura »

mbreese wrote: post #192
Glyptodon wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If I authorize an agent to act on my behalf in a particular way wouldn't they be considered and authorized as me? If I make a contract with Bob to mow my lawn, it's not like Bob's workers or employees have to sign the contract too. TPG shouldn't need to be party to the contract to be an agent of one of the contracted parties.

But if TPG is an agent of the customer, then AA should be suing the customer. As said above, TPG isn’t subject to the TOS because they aren’t the ones who agreed to them. So, it’s the user that is misusing AAs data. But they don’t want to sue their customers (and in particular each customer individually, because I’m sure there is a no-class-action clause)… So here we are. It should be fascinating to see where this go…

But if TPG is an agent of the customer, then AA should be suing the customer.

As the great Professor Hecker repeated so often in Business Associations - “The tortfeasor is always liable.” E.g. when you get hit by the Dominoes delivery driver, you can sue the delivery driver.

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