Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

psyche.co

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 261 posts

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#201

Post by pieter_mj »

akvadrako wrote: post #3

It takes a while to get to the point, but this is what the page is about: As we explained in a recent review paper, researchers have repeatedly found evidence that Autistic individuals are, on average, more consistent, less biased, and more rational than non-autistic individuals in a variety of contexts. Specifically, many Autistic people seem to be less susceptible to cognitive biases, and therefore better able to m…

I've mentioned this before, but this is why I believe it's "easy" for RMS to be so single-mindedly incorruptible, and why he can be trusted to never waver.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#202

Post by bayesianbot »

benjaminRRR wrote: post #187
bayesianbot wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This might sound strange but I'm autistic and first time I really noticed something was "wrong" was when I started school, met new people and noticed that all the adults and children think in a really different way - in my mind they couldn't explain their actions or thoughts logically, and it made no sense to me why they were fine with it. Why were they happy to have a conversation where I found a gaping hole in thei…

It's interesting, as I have this conversation with my kids - ie actually let them know, there's actually no good reason for this, it's just a societal rule. However, I then try to explain that it is often advantageous to follow these rules even if it doesn't seem to make any sense, because of the advantages you can get by being cohesive in society. It's a good exercise, and also helps me think, there really are some…

That is exactly what I wish my parents did with me (my meltdowns usually started after few answers of "It's a tradition/rule") and what I do with my kid. I think for me growing up one of the most important person was my 5-6th grade teacher who instead of punishing me for doing something wrong actually took the time to understand me and tell me the logic behind why I shouldn't do it - so now instead of being punished for some specific silly reason I couldn't understand, I could get a better understanding of society and apply that logic to a wider spectrum of situations. And he understood that if he just explains me stuff like that there's no reason to punish me as it won't happen again anyways.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#203

Post by steve_adams_86 »

yosame wrote: post #181
steve_adams_86 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it truly transient? I know some people "grow out of it", but it seems plenty of people are afflicted for life. Am I misunderstanding what transient means in this context?

It's not transient, it's a neurodevelopmental disorder that changes the fundamental structure of the brain and how it functions (this is a bit of a simplification, but it's true enough for this context). People who 'grow out' of having ADHD either: 1. Developed coping methods that lessened the impact of their symptoms, making them functional enough to not be diagnosable (ADHD is only diagnosed if it negatively impact…

Right, that’s what I thought. I’ve been diagnosed and it doesn’t feel transient in the slightest so that seemed like a peculiar statement. Thanks for your impactful response!

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#204

Post by seba_dos1 »

PeterisP wrote: post #199
seba_dos1 wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That doesn't answer my question at all - the statement was that it's "easier", not "cheaper" to go to that city at later time. Price is just one single factor that may influence how easy it will be later compared to now. Maybe a significant chunk of your motivation to visit city A was to see it covered in snow and do some winter sports, so if you cancel it now you'll likely have to wait a whole year to do it again? O…

All of your examples apply equally to both A and B (since we don't have any other information about the differences between A and B) and thus have no impact at all on the expectation about the difference between future cost or easiness or benefit/utility of the travel to A versus B, so these arguments can and should be ignored. On the other hand, the previous price is a signal that does provide some information about…

The example from the article explicitly mentions that there are some (unspecified) differences in motivation other than the price that are often overlooked by non-autistic people in such cases, so these arguments can not be ignored without misinterpreting the article's example.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#205

Post by Dracophoenix »

bitwize wrote: post #172
m_fayer wrote: post #67

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I almost wonder if empathy is the right word then, maybe this would best be described as something like "susceptibility to emotional contagion." Empathy as commonly defined includes an impulse to comfort and stand by, as opposed to avoidance.

Empathy has a performative component to neurotypicals. If you are not acting as though you are empathizing, you have "no empathy" and are thus a strange form of psychopath. Actual psychopaths can pass the performative part of neurotypical empathy with flying colors because they are excellent maskers and mirrorers -- that is, of course, when they can be bothered to try at all. Neurotypical psychology is deep, complex,…

Any examples in your Japanese case?

I would have thought the main performance bottle neck to social calibration would be the unspoken mind-reading requirement that seems to be prevalent in American society.

Perhaps I'm wrong, but from what I know of Japanese society is that it's pretty blunt in its expectations. So there isn't this "mental searching tax" to make the "right" social choice that seems to be de riguer in the States. Everyday behavior in Japanese society has explicit procedures that don't change all that much.

As I understand it, social failure in Japan is result of one of two things: The inability/lack of interest to follow these procedures (e.g. hikikomori, non-conformists, etc.), or following these procedures but with mistaken assumptions as to how the consequences would turn out (e.g. "herbivore" salarymen who have done everything right, but are unable to find wives like their fathers could)

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#206

Post by m_fayer »

Dracophoenix wrote: post #205
bitwize wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Empathy has a performative component to neurotypicals. If you are not acting as though you are empathizing, you have "no empathy" and are thus a strange form of psychopath. Actual psychopaths can pass the performative part of neurotypical empathy with flying colors because they are excellent maskers and mirrorers -- that is, of course, when they can be bothered to try at all. Neurotypical psychology is deep, complex,…

Any examples in your Japanese case? I would have thought the main performance bottle neck to social calibration would be the unspoken mind-reading requirement that seems to be prevalent in American society. Perhaps I'm wrong, but from what I know of Japanese society is that it's pretty blunt in its expectations. So there isn't this "mental searching tax" to make the "right" social choice that seems to be de riguer in…

That's interesting. A German friend of mine who's on the spectrum and had established a second life in Japan told me that Japan's explicitly defined social mores, and slightly more chilly and formal relations between people suit him much better than the Western default. His German buddies who also have one foot in Japan all seem like they're on the spectrum too, because of this I thought Japanese culture is a safe harbor for autistic folks.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#207

Post by zepto »

guerrilla wrote: post #141
zepto wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the point is that the thing that is ‘severe’ isn’t ‘autism’. An autistic person can be severely disabled, but the disability is itself a trait they only some autistic people have, so it doesn’t make sense to call the disability ‘autism’.

That doesn't seem like a useful place to draw the distinction. If someone has more autistic traits, they can be considered to be more autistic but not necessarily more disabled.

It’s not clear why you are disagreeing with me.

More autistic isn’t the same a ‘severe’.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#208

Post by zepto »

bryanrasmussen wrote: post #178
zepto wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but the point is that the thing that is ‘severe’ isn’t ‘autism’. An autistic person can be severely disabled, but the disability is itself a trait they only some autistic people have, so it doesn’t make sense to call the disability ‘autism’.

well you can have a benign tumor or one that is killing you, by that theory we should say the one that is killing you shouldn't really be called a tumor.

No. You presuppose autism to be a disease, like a tumor.

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#209

Post by Dracophoenix »

m_fayer wrote: post #206
Dracophoenix wrote: post #205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any examples in your Japanese case? I would have thought the main performance bottle neck to social calibration would be the unspoken mind-reading requirement that seems to be prevalent in American society. Perhaps I'm wrong, but from what I know of Japanese society is that it's pretty blunt in its expectations. So there isn't this "mental searching tax" to make the "right" social choice that seems to be de riguer in…

That's interesting. A German friend of mine who's on the spectrum and had established a second life in Japan told me that Japan's explicitly defined social mores, and slightly more chilly and formal relations between people suit him much better than the Western default. His German buddies who also have one foot in Japan all seem like they're on the spectrum too, because of this I thought Japanese culture is a safe ha…

I've generally had the impression that German society is itself quite procedural and legalistic. So much so, that I'm wondering how much of a difference between the two societies your friend and his friends perceive. Was that his only reason to go to Japan or were there others?

Re: Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

#210

Post by alexvoda »

mherrmann wrote: post #15
akvadrako wrote: post #3

It takes a while to get to the point, but this is what the page is about: As we explained in a recent review paper, researchers have repeatedly found evidence that Autistic individuals are, on average, more consistent, less biased, and more rational than non-autistic individuals in a variety of contexts. Specifically, many Autistic people seem to be less susceptible to cognitive biases, and therefore better able to m…

I know what you mean by "mild autism" but an article [1] that was recently discussed here [2] explains that "mild" vs. (say) "severe" does not quite capture the nuance of the condition. Just pointing it out here because I found it interesting. 1: https://neuroclastic.com/its-a-spectrum-doesnt-mean-what-you... 2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29682917

I remember when that article was trening on HN. I wonder how supported by data that article is, because if it is scientific it would be a wonderful quick and easy reply to people using autism and the spectrum for various arguments.

Higher resolution (of concepts) is better.

Post reply on HN