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Search engines and SEO spam

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201–210 of 555 posts

Re: Search engines and SEO spam

#201
post #5

The funny thing is that if the people who worked on spam at Google were free to talk about it, I'm sure it would become evident that they know more about spam and anti-spam efforts than anybody else in existence. It's a ridiculously hard problem, especially when people are targeting you directly. But they aren't free to talk about it, because if they did it would just give more assistance to the spammers, and make th…

> The funny thing is that if the people who worked on spam at Google were free to talk about it, I'm sure it would become evident that they know more about spam and anti-spam efforts than anybody else in existence.

That may be true, but I think one of the good points made on the OP is that it might actually be cultural constraints that keep them from solving the problem:

https://twitter.com/paulg/status/1477761335412809729:

> You might need to do a lot of manual spam fighting initially. That could be both the thing-that-doesn't-scale, and the thing that differentiates you by being alien to Google's DNA. (They must hate manual interventions; so inelegant).

Google has some very smart and knowledgeable people, but the things they do have to fit into certain boxes, which means there are some problems they just can't fix, e.g.

* Everything has to be automated at scale, which leads to consistent poor user experience (unappealable account closures initiated by inscrutable algorithms, SEO spam).

* You get promoted by building new products, not maintaining existing ones, which leads to self-defeating churn outside of core areas (e.g. abandoning Google Talk and squandering their position in the messenger market).

* etc.

Re: Search engines and SEO spam

#202
post #192
post #176

I think pg is missing something important here. The reason Google was able to beat Yahoo, Altavista, Ask, etc. was not just because they had a better formula — it was also because they started in the era where 'search' was still seen as secondary to 'portals' by the big guys. Had these companies known how important search is to the internet back then, they would've copied Google's secret sauce and crushed it long bef…

> I don't think a niche market is going to be enough. To displace a giant gobbling 180 billion dollars a year? Yeah, no kidding. But nobody is asking for that. They are just asking for decent search results.

[deleted]

Re: Search engines and SEO spam

#203
Google knows how to surface relevant results and they choose not to because they aren't optimizing for relevant results, they're optimizing for revenue or profit within some constraints (don't lose too many users, privacy, avoid actually terrible or completely irrelevant results).

All the various suggestions in this thread plus far more complex and insightful solutions are known to Google. Most of it boils down to using automated user feedback to improve or measure search result relevancy.

Google doesn't need to solicit user upvotes / downvotes to improve rankings. They can monitor user clicks on results in addition to analytics on the sites the users visit to determine which sites are relevant to which searches.

Google doesn't optimize for search relevancy.

Re: Search engines and SEO spam

#204
I think it will be hard to create a great a search engine while the web works as it does today. Maybe there could be like a sitemap but for text content that has the content structured, indexed, and signed by a trusted party in a way that makes it easy to analyze for plagiarism and so on.

Re: Search engines and SEO spam

#205

Eventually search will become a decentralized activity (No, not a web3/crypto/coin type decentralization, I am talking about the useful type). Is there any particular reason why internet search has to have a distorting gatekeeper to the global commons (that pretends playing Maxwell's demon). For chrissake, the stuff being indexed is public .

Not all that google indexes is public, primarily paywalls/loginwalls allow google IP's to crawl information unhindered but as users you are not, so a new search engine will have to get to a scale and popular enough for others to open up. Quick example: Google can index many news sites, or LinkedIn profiles for example that a regular user with no account cannot.

Thats true, but probably something that can be tackled later and in any case it would not be a show-stopper for creating a valuable alternative (There are similar thorny related issues around IP e.g. for news sites)

Re: Search engines and SEO spam

#207
I have wondered about this.

When I run web sites I frequently look at the log and find a large fraction of the traffic is from search engines. This is a problem because it costs me money to serve that traffic. It might not be initially obvious but it costs more than serving real users because the search engines will scan everything and break the cache.

Google sends a significant amount of traffic. Bing sends a detectable amount of traffic. Baidu's crawler might be more active than the two of those together but I never get hits from Baidu. Other crawlers deliver me trouble instead of value: even if I'm not interested in hosting pirate or plagiarized content, a crawler that is looking for trouble is only going to bring me trouble.

I hate doing it but I turn off crawlers other than Google and Bing both at the robots.txt and web server level because I just can't afford to serve Baidu queries.

I'd like to sign an exclusivity contract with a search engine such that they get exclusive access to crawl it and in turn I get a privileged position in search results. This would give the search engine and myself an incentive to deliver end-to-end quality results.

Re: Search engines and SEO spam

#208
post #5

The funny thing is that if the people who worked on spam at Google were free to talk about it, I'm sure it would become evident that they know more about spam and anti-spam efforts than anybody else in existence. It's a ridiculously hard problem, especially when people are targeting you directly. But they aren't free to talk about it, because if they did it would just give more assistance to the spammers, and make th…

But why is Google even dealing with spam? What if they (or someone else) curated top websites for a given category? For instance, when I search for a programming-related term, I already know that I want to see the answer on either Stack Overflow or one of a few reference documentation sites. It is possible that some other site could have the answer instead, but in practice the random sites that often show up at the top of the results are usually SEO spam. A search engine that figured out or let you select the semantic space you are in and then promoted known websites - maybe ones you curate yourself! - would be a big improvement.

Of course you can always hardcode the site you want in the Google search results but this is hacky and not very expressive.

Re: Search engines and SEO spam

#209
post #5

The funny thing is that if the people who worked on spam at Google were free to talk about it, I'm sure it would become evident that they know more about spam and anti-spam efforts than anybody else in existence. It's a ridiculously hard problem, especially when people are targeting you directly. But they aren't free to talk about it, because if they did it would just give more assistance to the spammers, and make th…

I'm sure they know all about it, but are prevented from doing anything by the business model. Pinterest has been spamming up my search results for years. Maybe other people find it helpful, but I do not. It's obvious I am never going to get value from Pinterest. Let me click a button to add it to my block list. One single click would have given me years of massively improved results.

The fact that this feature does not exist shows that there is something deep within Google's core that is preventing them from addressing SEO spam, just like there is something deep within Airbnb that makes it difficult to filter out Airbnbs with problem reviews.

Google has been coasting for a good long time and now major players are realizing they are wide open for disruption.

Re: Search engines and SEO spam

#210

The quote-Tweeted thread mentioned recipes as one of the things that has been SEObliterated. It's a great example of the problem, and also a great example of the problems any solution will encounter. Recipes have become a bellwether Internet problem. In the past, your great-grandmother had a card file with a bunch of 3x5 index cards with the ingredients and instructions on how to make everything, and they pretty much…

>I'm not sure there is any technological solution

The technological solution would be to stop rewarding them for these monstrosities. One of the main motivator for turning a short recipes into a 19 page essai about the chef's life is that more words = better ranking.

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