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We need to reclaim our attention

theguardian.com

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Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#201

Post by claudiulodro »

thegrimmest wrote: post #135
Apocryphon wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Externality

I agree that the maintenance of the common physical environment we live in should be regulated, but that's not what we're talking about here is it? We're talking about regulating interaction between people, which is inherently paternalistic.

- We already regulate interaction between people (e.g. you can't throw a rock at someone when you disagree with them). Even if it's paternalistic, surely you're not proposing we should do away with those regulations.

- The internet is a common shared environment, so its maintenance should be regulated like other environments to manage externalities.

These points seem consistent with your philosophy and also permit regulation of social media companies.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#202

Post by spicyusername »

champagnois wrote: post #164

Consider what this does to opinion and independent thinking. Most attention grabbing platforms are designed to use a variety of reward mechanisns to reinforce the politics of the platform. Some easily botted platforms (like reddit) will constantly bombard people with anti-civilizational content promoting "anti-work" or very toxic identity politics that further isolates the users, and, in turn, strengthens their addic…

Absolutely agree. I see anecdotal evidence of this everywhere. Its most noticicble with people who spend a lot of time "online" browsing placing like twitter, reddit, and tiktok (or even older folks who watch too much "mainstream" cable tv news). They tend to hold derivative and thoughtless "stock" worldviews that are clearly directly borrowed from the feed they subscribe to and not a result of deciding for themselves how they think things based on their lived experiences or research. This is as much a "liberal" problem (e.g. Capitalism is bad) as it is a "conservative" one (e.g. Universal healthcare is communism).

A particularly striking example for me recently was when I happened to compare the content on my TikTok feed to the content on my 60 year old parents. There were completely different sets of propaganda being peddled to both of us that were essentially incompatible with each other.

We are all drowning in so much propaganda on these platforms its almost impossible to separate fact from fiction or to find a perspective that has the proper level of nuance. Its no wonder everyone is so divided.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#203

Post by mc32 »

neuronic wrote: post #188
mc32 wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d say more broadly it will be used for manipulative purposes. It’s a great tool for getting eager participants and then “gamifying” it to achieve some wanted behavior that extends to real life.

A Pokemon GO - like game but developed by a subversive power to destabilize society further and further, inch by inch, slowly until the strength withers from within. Would be a decent Black Mirror episode.

Yep but with real life implications such as social credits and in game credits to influence behavior.

For example we have people who forgo actual social interaction and instead favor synthetic relationships and achievements.

Potentially you could maid millions happy by giving them a synthetic world and IRL they live off some form of UBI but because the made up world is most of their existence they don’t mind nor care about their IRL standard of living going down, etc.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#204

Post by praveen9920 »

marcosdumay wrote: post #176
praveen9920 wrote: post #87

> … It’s when you are doing something meaningful to you, and you really get into it, and time falls away, and your ego seems to vanish, and you find yourself focusing deeply and effortlessly… Oh. Have I missed “the flow”. I have been trying to get back into the mode from a while, with lot of self doubt in mind, “ you are just lazy”, “you are too distracted by Twitter “, “were you like this all along”.. It hit me hard…

You may be working on something that isn't really one of your interests. Can you get into it while playing a game?

I tried many things.. playing games, drawing, hardware, sales.. etc.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#205

Post by Apocryphon »

jacquesm wrote: post #49
optimalsolver wrote: post #46

I believe that once we reach a post-scarcity phase of civilization, the attention of other human beings will be the last, zero-sum scarce resource. And the competition over it will be no less intense and brutal than historical conflicts over the basics of life.

> I believe that once we reach a post-scarcity phase of civilization That may never happen. > the attention of other human beings will be the last, zero-sum scarce resource It doesn't have to wait for it to be last for that battle to get underway. > And the competition over it will be no less intense and brutal than historical conflicts over the basics of life Depending on where you live, you may already be there. It…

We were promised a future of replicators and starships where the zero-sum scarce resource of fame was given to explorers like Captain Jean-Luc Picard.

We were given a present of increasing inequality and supply chain shortages where internet thought leaders fight it out for likes, subscribes, and RT’s.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#206

Post by Mezzie »

philipswood wrote: post #168
zentropia wrote: post #120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do we have an epidemic of chess?

In the late 18-hundreds Chess was considered a bit of an undesirable epidenic. Check out this gizmodo article: https://gizmodo.com/chess-was-once-deemed-a-menace-to-societ...

Novels and bicycling were as well, particularly with women.

People are weird.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#207

Post by andersonvom »

thegrimmest wrote: post #85
sascha_sl wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're acting like corporations aren't enacting control over large populations right now either. Everything the market does as a byproduct of maximizing profits is fine, but all other intervention with provably better mental and physical health outcomes is authoritarian. Did I get that right?

> provably better First we have to all agree on what this means, which I'm quite sure is impossible. Everything the free market does is voluntary by definition. Every "intervention" is by definition not. That is exactly the basis for my opposition to authoritarian paternalism. Also I disagree that corporations are "enacting control" - they are merely exerting influence. There is a world of difference.

> Everything the free market does is voluntary by definition. Every "intervention" is by definition not.

In some ideal world, where both parties of an exchange hold equal bargaining power, the "free" market might be "voluntary".

This is certainly not the current state of affairs, though. Being able to "choose" between a crappy option and a horrible option is anything but voluntary: "you can choose to work for me for little to no money... or you can choose to starve to death. it's your 'free' choice."

The very premise of what would make a free market efficient in the real world simply doesn't exist, but we keep trying to convince ourselves that it does because we don't know or aren't used to anything different.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#208

Post by 29athrowaway »

slibhb wrote: post #42

> Some scientists say these worries about attention are a moral panic, comparable to the anxieties in the past about comic books or rap music, and that the evidence is shaky. I agree with them. It's hard to pay attention to something for long unless it's entertaining. Reading a book, reading a paper, etc -- these activities take discipline that most people don't develop or don't often apply. This isn't new. The mista…

Please take with a grain of salt because I am no expert here: IIRC, ADHD is caused by brains that have too many dopamine transporters, resulting in dopamine being transported faster than normal, causing increased anxiety and impulsivity.

But then there's addiction, which can hijack one of your brain systems like your dopamine or endorphine systems. In the case of internet addiction disorder, reading endless feeds must be related to dopamine for sure.

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#209

Post by 37 »

shukantpal wrote: post #103
37 wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's both. Yes it is good that you spent early 2021 not mindlessly scrolling TikTok, and yes it is true that as individuals we do have some agency in the matter. But, it is also true that in this 'attention economy' the large companies are hiring psychologists to try to break your agency, to try to take it away from you. And they are doing a pretty damn good job, and aren't going to stop any time soon. "Stolen" in th…

> “Stolen" in the title of the OP is not really an exaggeration. Theft can happen only when it’s involuntary. > the problem is systemic, essentially baked into the business model of advertising/marketing, and it should be addressed That’s not the root cause. It is just a choke point for blame. The root cause is the choice people make, which we’ve established exists. If people want help, there are plenty of mitigation…

>Theft can happen only when it’s involuntary.

I suppose I am arguing that it is involuntary. Social media addiction is a real thing. "Stolen attention" seems to fit here. But I guess the line does get blurry. When a true heroin addict shoots up, is that completely voluntary or completely involuntary? Probably neither.

>The root cause is the choice people make, which we’ve established exists. If people want help, there are plenty of mitigations for social media, like alternative front ends.

So the root cause is not that these companies are being manipulative for financial gain, the cause is that users aren't choosing alternative front ends to social media (or some other mitigations). Hmm... Not sure I agree.

Yes, it is true users have some sort of agency or choice in the matter, but that doesn't mean these large companies aren't still doing the sneaky things that we know they are. Even you including the word "mitigation" in your response speaks to the fact that the problem is deeper than the users choice. Mitigation is secondary.

Also, I think this is a great discussion that is well worth having. The 'root cause' of all of this... (I tend to think it's just greed.)

Re: We need to reclaim our attention

#210

Post by ClumsyPilot »

bnralt wrote: post #173
slibhb wrote: post #42

> Some scientists say these worries about attention are a moral panic, comparable to the anxieties in the past about comic books or rap music, and that the evidence is shaky. I agree with them. It's hard to pay attention to something for long unless it's entertaining. Reading a book, reading a paper, etc -- these activities take discipline that most people don't develop or don't often apply. This isn't new. The mista…

I think many of your examples are of times we failed to counter problematic tendencies as a society, gave up, and then even worse (in this case, more addictive time consuming activities) things come along. It's basically the realization of a slippery slope, where failure to stop one problematic trend is used to justify an even worse trend. Society can survive with bad tendencies. Think about 50 years ago when America…

"it's hard to imagine the world without them"

There is soviet sci-fi novel that features a distopian society where people a killed before they become frail and become a burdain, and its considered an honour. They can't imagine the world otherwise.

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