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I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

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Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#201

I had a question about the veritasium video, at some point they say that the electrons barely move, that confused me since that doesn't match my understanding of amperage, flow of electrons being for example 6.24x10^18 per second. Anyone care to help me out? Maybe that just isn't much?

Calculate the volume of wire that would contain 6e18 free electrons, assuming 1 electron per atom.

You can intuit it by knowing Avogadro's constant is 6e23.

So 1e-5 mol, 1 mol of (atomic) Copper is 63g, so that's 6e-4g of copper. Density of copper is 9g/cm3 so let's say 1e-4 cm3 = 1e-1 mm3 = 0.1 cubic mm of copper.

So one amp in a copper wire is equivalent to 0.1 cubic mm of that wire's electrons flowing out each second. I'd say that's "barely moving".

(very roughly)

Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His technical errors include the “correct” multiple-choice answer being that the time to turn on is “1/c s”. That evaluates to 3.3e-9 s^2/m. It’s not even a time. Failing basic dimensional analysis is grossly sloppy.

It should be obvious that the "c" here was used as a magnitude not with units. Saying that's "failing dimensional analysis" is in itself grossly sloppy - since it totally misses the context.

[deleted]

Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you're correct for the most part. I think us EEs tend to compartmentalize the information we've learned in school; while we may technically have all the "tools", knowing when to apply that knowledge isn't always apparent. I definitely think there is a lack of applied EE knowledge; PCB layout with an emphasis on signal integrity etc would make an excellent undergrad course in school. In terms of PCB layout --…

> PCB layout with an emphasis on signal integrity etc would make an excellent undergrad course in school. This is strongly frequency and wave-form dependent. Just the difference between square waves and sine waves and say a few KHz to a few 10's of MHz can have dramatic consequences on how hard it will be to get a circuit to behave in the way you intended it to. I think one of the bigger insights you can have when de…

I think it was in one of Rick Hartley's videos that he talked about designing for analog vs digital. There are a bunch of points I remember, in no particular order:

- the frequency of your circuit, that you need to design for, is determined by the rise and fall time of your ICs, not your clock. (With your square wave, for example, it's impossible for it to actually be square; it has some finite rise and fall time that determines the frequency you need to design to).

- IC manufacturers almost never actually tell you the rise and fall time of their chips. Also, they might do a die shrink at any time, resulting in you having to redesign your circuit to accommodate the higher frequencies from smaller, faster transistors (even if it operates at exactly the same clock frequency as before). If you're lucky, they'll even tell you about the die shrink rather than just letting you find out when suddenly your design stops passing EMI testing.

- high-frequency can be easier than low-frequency; you really need to pay attention to impedance control, but so long as everything is well laid-out the fields will stay closely contained. The lower the frequency, the more the fields will spread and the greater the risk of having problems such as crosstalk.

- Digital is easier than analog. Digital can tolerate a lot of noise before a 0 becomes a 1 or vice versa. Whereas if you're sending a signal to a 24-bit ADC, you might have to go a bit crazy and use a PCB-embedded waveguide, or something, to give it the isolation it needs.

- Even if digital signals are quite resilient from a signal integrity standpoint, you still have to pay close attention to crosstalk because it takes very little common mode current to cause an EMI problem. And you have to pay attention to EMI if you actually want your design to pass emissions testing to be able to sell it.

- Even at high frequencies, anything at a length scale less than (wavelength of maximum frequency)/10 can be treated as a lumped element. So if it's possible to jam two high-frequency ICs right up against one another, with the pads pretty much touching, that's probably actually better than a carefully impedance-controlled transmission line connecting them. That's not really applicable to some monster BGA chip, but if you're designing a switched-mode power supply you can make the node between the inductor and MOSFET a lumped element by placing them as close as possible.

Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#204

I had a question about the veritasium video, at some point they say that the electrons barely move, that confused me since that doesn't match my understanding of amperage, flow of electrons being for example 6.24x10^18 per second. Anyone care to help me out? Maybe that just isn't much?

Calculate the volume of wire that would contain 6e18 free electrons, assuming 1 electron per atom. You can intuit it by knowing Avogadro's constant is 6e23. So 1e-5 mol, 1 mol of (atomic) Copper is 63g, so that's 6e-4g of copper. Density of copper is 9g/cm3 so let's say 1e-4 cm3 = 1e-1 mm3 = 0.1 cubic mm of copper. So one amp in a copper wire is equivalent to 0.1 cubic mm of that wire's electrons flowing out each sec…

Thank you, that puts it in perspective.

Just to validate then, these barely moving electrons will create a field that induces a current on the electrons on the other side of the wire that is 1m away, which would turn on the bulb, that if the lightbulb was an ideal current detector that ignores all other sources of electric fields?

Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#205
post #112

The first signal is a close RF transmission, billions of people rely on it everyday, a current disturbs the electromagnetic field and and an antenna, sometimes thousands of kilometers away, detects a very small variation in the field (-120dbm @ 50Ω = 0.2μV). This is how our cellphones, wifi, GPS, RFID works. So, even if you disconnect the bulb and the switch you can create a current in the bulb by turning on and off…

I feel like RF is the wrong term. RF is short for radio frequency. That implies an oscillating EM field at a frequency which is practically useful for radio transmissions. This is a transient EM field disturbance. Same mechanism more or less, but it's not really 'radio'. I'm sure many will disagree but that's my opinion on it.

Yes I agree with you, RF is not the good term in this case. I wanted to compare it to RF transmissions which are oscillations in the EM field.

Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#206
post #187
post #76

So, I genuinely do not get the "controversy" over the Veritasium video. AFAIU, the entire point of the video was to show that electricity travels not through wires but via electric fields ("through the air" so to speak). To illustrate this, he sets up an experiment with parameters such that the conclusion can only mean that some electricity has traveled to the bulb before any could arrive through/around the wires. He…

He sets up the parameters so that the bulb would turn on by that little electricity That's the bit where he's factually wrong. He's made this illogical world where the tiny amounts of electricity in field lines well outside the wire trigger the lamp but the leakage current and other sources of current don't. If you're going to be pedantic about something you have to be pedantic about the whole thing, damn it. Veritas…

I'd say most of his videos fail in similar ways.

Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#207
post #76

So, I genuinely do not get the "controversy" over the Veritasium video. AFAIU, the entire point of the video was to show that electricity travels not through wires but via electric fields ("through the air" so to speak). To illustrate this, he sets up an experiment with parameters such that the conclusion can only mean that some electricity has traveled to the bulb before any could arrive through/around the wires. He…

If electricity doesn't travel through wires, why do resistors dissipate heat? I'm having trouble understanding what is even being claimed. Electrons are moving, without the movement of the electrons there is no electricity travel, without the wires there is no flow of electrons, so what does it mean to say that electricity doesn't travel through wires? Is the claim just that the electricity, by way of fields, travels…

> If electricity doesn't travel through wires, why do resistors dissipate heat?

Thanks, For me this is the best comment in this thread.

Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#208
post #76

So, I genuinely do not get the "controversy" over the Veritasium video. AFAIU, the entire point of the video was to show that electricity travels not through wires but via electric fields ("through the air" so to speak). To illustrate this, he sets up an experiment with parameters such that the conclusion can only mean that some electricity has traveled to the bulb before any could arrive through/around the wires. He…

Medhi Sadaghdar (Electroboom) explains this. Medhi says the video is right but starts with a trick question. That's what the controversy is about.

https://youtu.be/iph500cPK28

Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Especially Mark Rober. His videos aren't really about science at all, but rather attention-grabbing feats like package thief glitter bombs, squirrel mazes, and chemical volcano explosions—pure entertainment. None of his videos teach you anything like Steve Mould's videos do.

I think the point is to get people excited about science and show what is possible/spark curiosity rather than trying to recreate a classroom. You can see this by all the kids that take his classes. There is space for both to exist.

Excited about engineering, not really science.

Re: I bought 1000 meters of wire to settle a physics debate [video]

#210
post #112

The first signal is a close RF transmission, billions of people rely on it everyday, a current disturbs the electromagnetic field and and an antenna, sometimes thousands of kilometers away, detects a very small variation in the field (-120dbm @ 50Ω = 0.2μV). This is how our cellphones, wifi, GPS, RFID works. So, even if you disconnect the bulb and the switch you can create a current in the bulb by turning on and off…

Ignoring how accurate calling it RF is, so the experiment showed that electrons travel faster through air than through copper, you can see that, and the two delays are what you'd expect them to be?

The transmission speed in air would be very close to a vacuum, so the speed of light (c). This depends on the velocity factor [1], for pure copper it's 0.95 c, so 95% the speed of light.

Actually for air, according to this source [2], the velocity factor is 0.999707085823853610892 c.

[1] https://lowpowerlab.com/guide/rf-best-practices/velocity-fac...

[2] https://www.qsl.net/ac5jw/isbp/vf.html

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