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Preventing extreme polarization of political attitudes

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Re: Preventing extreme polarization of political attitudes

#201

Post by archagon »

edmcnulty101 wrote: post #119

The media calling January 6th an 'insurrection' is a perfect example of the problem. It's pure sensationalism. There were no guns, there was no centralized organization to indicate an insurrection, the 4 people who died were all protestors, mostly from being dumbasses. Clearly those people who damaged the capitol should be punished, just like the Black Lives Matter protesters who damaged the Foley Federal Building. B…

Some reading for you: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempts_to_overturn_the_202...

Re: Preventing extreme polarization of political attitudes

#202

Post by theword_ »

cool_dude85 wrote: post #82
idontwantthis wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Where is a single Democratic politician fighting to close polling places and restrict Republican populations from voting? Where is a single Republican politician fighting to give greater access to the vote? Where was a single Democrat who stormed the Virginia capital when Republicans won the Governorship? 2 Republicans in Congress voted for an investigation of the insurrections, so there you go: charity.

Take a look at primary elections in Democrat strongholds like NY to see the same kind of voting restrictions you're railing against, designed of course to ensure that current party power brokers are difficult to challenge.

Totally dishonest to compare primaries to general elections.

Re: Preventing extreme polarization of political attitudes

#203

Post by archagon »

insickness wrote: post #72
idontwantthis wrote: post #49

Polarization in America: One side invaded the capital building in a violent attempt to overthrow democracy, and the other side wants to make voting for whoever you want as easy as possible. Guess which pole I’m at and tell me how I should meet the other pole in the middle.

You inadvertently provide an excellent example of what is causing polarization in America: Highlight the worst possible examples from the side you oppose while assigning the most charitable intentions to the side you support.

As far as I’m concerned, “attempted coup” is a burned bridge that will never be rebuilt. I’m not a member of the Democratic party, but there is nothing the Republican party can do to make me ever vote for them in the future. I hope that the party withers and dies, and that any remaining sensible people go and form a new party.

Some offenses are simply unforgivable.

Re: Preventing extreme polarization of political attitudes

#204

Post by dragonwriter »

edmcnulty101 wrote: post #196
dragonwriter wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> One person was found with a gun on Capital grounds not inside the capital One insurrectionists was physically caught in the cordon on the grounds when law enforcement was clearing it with a firearm (Alberts), whether he had gone inside the building or not is uncertain (and immaterial). One insurrectionist (the DEA Agent Ibrahim) was caught and charged with having been on the grounds with a firearm based on photogra…

So no guns found inside the capitol? Not a single gun was found inside of the location where it's claimed it's claimed they were trying to overthrow? Not a single shot went off? Just poop on the walls? Can you overthrow a government by making it so gross with poo that they don't want to go back in the building? I don't believe this should be labeled an insurrection.

> So no guns found inside the capitol?

You really should want what guns were used to be distributed between the people that went in to the building and those staying outside with no discernible patterns to argue against an organized insurrection. All the guns being outside just indicates that it was strategy (say to overwhelm the outnumbered inside security with numbers, melee weapons, and chemical agents, while reserving firearms to deal with the potentially more numerous and better equipped relief that could be sent).

Now, I don't care one way or the other, because I am not arguing it was a particularly well-planned or organized insurrection, because incompetence is not a mitigating factor. But as well as keeping moving the goalposts because you seem unfamiliar with the basic facts, you also seem to be very bad at even picking positions to defend which make a coherent argument.

Re: Preventing extreme polarization of political attitudes

#205

Post by edmcnulty101 »

archagon wrote: post #201
edmcnulty101 wrote: post #119

The media calling January 6th an 'insurrection' is a perfect example of the problem. It's pure sensationalism. There were no guns, there was no centralized organization to indicate an insurrection, the 4 people who died were all protestors, mostly from being dumbasses. Clearly those people who damaged the capitol should be punished, just like the Black Lives Matter protesters who damaged the Foley Federal Building. B…

Some reading for you: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attempts_to_overturn_the_202...

I read that. It seemed very non-neutral and politically charged.

The first citation I looked at...Citation number 7...is to a politico blog post.

I don't know if that can be taken seriously.

We are truly in a post-truth era.

Re: Preventing extreme polarization of political attitudes

#206

Post by ShamelessC »

edmcnulty101 wrote: post #193
ShamelessC wrote: post #190

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is identity politics in America. No. Identity politics is (for instance) being incredibly pedantic about the usage of a word because you take (glaringly obvious, btw) personal offense to its usage. We have all gathered you are some form of right-leaning conservative at this point. No one else would be as defensive as you have been about this topic. Whether you feel it was an insurrection or not, can we at leas…

I'm actually pretty left leaning and pro UBI and socialized healthcare and education But I'm also against lies and propaganda. And the narrative here is a perfect example of how identity politics are damaging to the country as a whole. This is equivalent to conservatives demonizing liberals for being 'communists'. Its inaccurate, wrong, polarizing, and the media and the people in power benefit while the rest of us ha…

Can you respond to this?

> Whether you feel it was an insurrection or not, can we at least agree that it was an attack on democracy? These protestors may not have been armed, but they were threatening and intimidating as they chanted things like "hang mike Pence" and "where are you Nancy?".

> The overall context of course was that many of these people believed themselves that they were there to prevent the electoral college votes from being counted by the joint assembly.

Re: Preventing extreme polarization of political attitudes

#207

Post by dragonwriter »

Both ideological and effective polarization are exacerbated by electoral and political structures like those in the US that promote factional duopoly; comparative study of modern democracies has shown this. Reducing it is simple, adopt an electoral system which has greater legislative proportionality and a political system less heavily tilted to a unitary executive.

Re: Preventing extreme polarization of political attitudes

#208

Post by dragonwriter »

edmcnulty101 wrote: post #132
TomSwirly wrote: post #123

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A group of people publicly proclaimed that the election was fake. They announced they were going to advance on Congress and Stop The Steal. They showed up in the thousands with weapons and restraining devices, broke into the Capitol building, broke a lot of things, literally wiped their shit on the walls, and were finally repulsed. Sounds like an "INSURRECTION" to me. What part is missing? Do you only count it as an…

> weapons Sensationalism. There were no guns, which an insurrection would have. > A group of people publicly proclaimed that the election was fake. They announced they were going to advance on Congress and Stop The Steal. Even your language: 'advance on Congress and stop the steal' is vague and non-specific, and could refer to a protest. They organized a protest that got out of hand. Sensationalism. I'm not really go…

> There were no guns, which an insurrection would have.

Both halves of this sentence are wrong: there were guns, which an insurrection need not have.

> I'm not really going to spend time debating your extreme views.

Viewing the insurrectionists as insurrectionists isn't an extreme view.

---quote---

Half of Iowans say the mob that stormed the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6 in an effort to derail the election certification process was an insurrection and a threat to democracy, a new Des Moines Register/Mediacom Iowa Poll shows.

That includes 93% of Democrats, 50% of independents and 20% of Republicans.

---end quote---

https://www.desmoinesregister.com/story/news/politics/iowa-p...

---quote---

Most Americans believe the Jan. 6 attack on the U.S. Capitol can be described as an "insurrection" but remain divided on how it should be investigated, according to a new Monmouth University poll.

Fifty-six percent of respondents said it is appropriate to call what happened on Jan. 6, when a mob of former President Trump's supporters stormed the Capitol, an insurrection, while an even larger majority - 72 percent - say it could be appropriately described as a "riot."

In contrast, only one-third of respondents said that they see the events of Jan. 6 as a "legitimate protest," according to the Monmouth poll.

---end quote---

https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/558918-poll-majority-s...

Re: Preventing extreme polarization of political attitudes

#209

Post by ShamelessC »

edmcnulty101 wrote: post #186
ShamelessC wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No one forced you to fact check them and you still seem like you're a bit too frustrated to have a pleasant debate with. It seems if there's one thing we agree on, it's that social media encourages divisiveness. Consider taking some time away from commenting - this is my go-to strategy when I'm hot-headed.

I'm very pleasant to people who don't discuss things with disengenuous, statistically inaccurate, sensationalist intentions, meant to further an ideological narrative.

Again, no one forced you to talk to that person. If you don't have anything constructive _and_ pleasant to say, then please wait for your mood to simmer before commenting.

Re: Preventing extreme polarization of political attitudes

#210

Post by edmcnulty101 »

dragonwriter wrote: post #204
edmcnulty101 wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So no guns found inside the capitol? Not a single gun was found inside of the location where it's claimed it's claimed they were trying to overthrow? Not a single shot went off? Just poop on the walls? Can you overthrow a government by making it so gross with poo that they don't want to go back in the building? I don't believe this should be labeled an insurrection.

> So no guns found inside the capitol? You really should want what guns were used to be distributed between the people that went in to the building and those staying outside with no discernible patterns to argue against an organized insurrection. All the guns being outside just indicates that it was strategy (say to overwhelm the outnumbered inside security with numbers, melee weapons, and chemical agents, while rese…

>> You really should want what guns were used to be distributed between the people that went in to the building and those staying outside with no discernible patterns to argue against an organized insurrection

I dont follow. This is not super coherent.

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