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Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

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Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#201

Post by arrrg »

fileeditview wrote: post #73
_moof wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the insight. I'm curious; is the problem staffing, "beds" (which I assume means actual physical beds, or is this a term of art?), or a combination? Also curious how one squares the resource constraint issue with the exceptional nature of the events of the past couple years. What I mean is, did anyone think it made sense to massively increase capacity before the pandemic began? I'm not in health care so I d…

It's staffing. See my other comment. Germany lost > 4000 ICU beds during the past year.

Could you source that claim?

I’m comparing the numbers from the DIVI registry:

2020-12-02: https://edoc.rki.de/handle/176904/7522 2021-12-02: https://edoc.rki.de/handle/176904/9047

I’m getting 24,949 beds for today, 27,543 as the year ago number (in both cases including a couple thousand ICU beds for kids which were later split out in the more current DIVI reports since ICU beds for kids aren’t helpful for this pandemic).

That’s a difference of 2,594.

Also, as the DIVI themselves explain: “Consequently, several factors play a role in influencing the number of beds that can be operated. A deliberate reduction of beds during the pandemic cannot be assumed. The reduction in available beds can be explained by the various points mentioned above, among others, and is supported by other data collected. The decisive factor for the operability of a bed is the medical staff.”

This is under a FAQ entry where they list five different reasons for the reduction in capacity: https://www.intensivregister.de/#/faq/18af7107-e098-43e7-a9f...

Staff themselves being affected by COVID-19 and becoming unable to work is just one of them.

The others are changes in how much staff is allocated per patient (this was increased), hospitals being more precise in their reporting and only reporting beds that can actually be staffed, changes in the criteria for a bed to be actually countable and the high effort ICU therapy of COVID-19 patients requires.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#202

Post by dang »

throwaway224466 wrote: post #89
dang wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comments are correctly getting flagged because you're taking the thread further into generic ideological flamewar. That's off topic here and clearly against the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html . If you'd please review them and stick to the rules when posting here, we'd appreciate it. Edit: actually, it looks like you've been using this account primarily for ideological battle, a…

"Idealogical flamewar" a.k.a. any non-leftist talking points so downvoted into oblivion. You are a terrible human being and there will likely soon be consequences for people supporting this non-logical persecution.

Everyone with strong passions on a topic feels like the mods are against them, the moment they see any sign of a post that they agree with getting moderated.

https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor...

In reality, we ban accounts that do ideological flamewar from the other side in just the same way, and they feel like we're just as biased against them. They agree that we're terrible human beings though!

The striking thing is how the passionate partisans and ideologues resemble each other more than they resemble the rest of us. They see each other as bitter enemies, yet from my perspective they're close to isomorphic. (Edit: no, that's not a centrist defense of the squishy middle ground. It doesn't work that way.)

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#203

Post by notjes »

fabian2k wrote: post #99

71% percent of Germans support mandatory vaccinations for COVID, this is from a poll published today. Our governments failed pretty hard in this wave, which is why we now need to take more drastic measures again when the entirely predictable course events would take this winter became apparent even to our politicians. But at a point were planned operations for other diseases like cancer get cancelled all over the pla…

Via polling, you can conjure a majority for most stupidest shit. That is why founding fathers invented the constitution and the bill of rights.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#204

Post by ceejayoz »

commandlinefan wrote: post #199
jjoonathan wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really hard to sympathize with people fighting for the "right" to infect me with a disease.

If you're vaccinated, how can anybody infect you with it?

How did you and a whole bunch of other people apparently hear "95% efficacy against severe disease" and somehow decide that meant "100% efficacy against infection"?

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#205

Post by smnrchrds »

makomk wrote: post #130
_moof wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I might be working from old info here but my understanding is that vaccination reduces the ICU burden. Assuming that's still good info, is it totally unreasonable to blame the unvaccinated for ICU overload?

Vaccination does reduce the proportion of people that need ICU beds, but there are pretty rapid diminishing returns on just vaccinating more; countries have reached the point where the majority of Covid patients in their ICUs are vaccinated at well below 100% vaccination. Also, vaccinating younger lower-risk people doesn't help because they're at substantially lower risk of needing the ICU even unvaccinated than some…

Right now in my province, unvaccinated individuals make up 11.2% of 12+ population but more than 66% of hospitalizations. I don't expect the ICU rates to be more favourable to the unvaccianted than total hospitalization rates. If there is a point of rapid diminishing returns, it is not at ~90% yet.

https://www.alberta.ca/stats/covid-19-alberta-statistics.htm...

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#207

Post by 0x_rs »

A recent submission[0] makes me think politicians, media and so-called TV experts should refrain from promising things that are misleading, deceiving and may have disastrous results in the short future. Vaccination shouldn't mean giving up on basic measures, but I believe it has been broadly advertised as such in this current year with, in a personal conclusion of mine, devastating results. In a few countries (such as Italy) in an ironic twist unvaccinated individuals were significantly more monitored due to mandatory testing every 48hrs for any work, while new spread and emerging variants seem to close the gap in transmission between vaccinated and unvaccinated people, as everyone minded their own business in overcrowded public transportation, gatherings et cetera. As others have mentioned in this discussion, hospitals and health services must still tend to a large pool of vaccinated people (significant majority of population in Western countries) that require medical attention and can overwhelm systems in place.

Even if everyone in these countries that are rolling third doses did get wholly vaccinated in a short amount of time to attempt to halt transmission in its tracks, the majority of the world where some of the latest VoCs originated (Delta, Omicron) are largely unprotected.

Everyone wants this to end but most people are also led to believe, willingly or not, something as basic as a vaccination will bring everything back to normal. It doesn't, it hasn't so far, has it?

[0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29412681

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#208

Post by ceejayoz »

mandmandam wrote: post #175
jjoonathan wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's really hard to sympathize with people fighting for the "right" to infect me with a disease.

People saying this are being flagged, but the fact remains that COVID vaccines don't stop transmission. The CDC themselves state that viral load is similar in fully vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals. And yes, people have the right to refuse medical treament; that's a human right. It's there for very good reasons, and there is broad agreement among civil liberties experts on that point.

> The CDC themselves state that viral load is similar in fully vaccinated and unvaccinated individuals.

You missed a pretty important bit of that statement.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/variants/delta-var...

> However, like prior variants, the amount of viral genetic material may go down faster in fully vaccinated people when compared to unvaccinated people. This means fully vaccinated people will likely spread the virus for less time than unvaccinated people.

As for transmission, the CDC actually says the vaccines do help here. (Not stop, but reduce.) https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/keythings...

> And yes, people have the right to refuse medical treament; that's a human right.

Most states in the US require a variety of vaccinations to enter public school. New York requires it even for private/religious schooling (https://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/immunization/schools/sc...). Measles, DTaP, polio, etc. have widespread existing requirements predating COVID.

Re: Germany locks down unvaccinated people, as leaders plan to make shots compulsory

#210

Post by lbj »

boringg wrote: post #192
howinteresting wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mortality isn't the only negative outcome.

You should add Mortality + mortality in the following year. Studies coming out that people who survived severe covid had over twice the risk of dying within the next year.

Interesting, I did not know. Have a source?
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