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Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

reuters.com

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Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#201

Post by listless »

joebiden2024 wrote: post #180
rglover wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whilst thousands of healthcare workers in the US —- those who are supposed to be proponents of public health measures and rational, scientific thinking - refuse to get vaccinated [...] These people were considered heroes last year (and overwhelmingly exposed to this virus while everyone else stayed at home). Now their judgment is in question because they won't follow the herd, with all of their medical experience/e…

If they infect their patients or die from a preventable cause from their patients they are not heroes, they're just dumb.

name checks out

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#202

Post by encryptluks2 »

dham wrote: post #161
Bhilai wrote: post #97

Mandates are probably not going to work but what would work is denying insurance claims. If someone ends up in a hospital occupying an ICU bed for an illness that could have been prevented by a vaccine widely and freely available then insurance companies (and medicare) should refuse to pay thousands of dollars for their treatment. It was their choice not to use preventative care available.

I got one for you, we can prevent 80% of covid deaths and hospitalizations and reduce other diseases and get universal healthcare because the cost would be much less...Just ban fast foods. Make everyone exercise and that would be mandated by government. It would much less intrusive than requiring someone to inject something into their body.

If I recall, the White House worked with various companies to give out incentives for getting vaccinated like beer and donuts.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#203

Post by curiousgal »

chronofar wrote: post #184
curiousgal wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HN is mostly centred around the U.S.

Rejecting a compulsory measure not “anti-science,” and using that term in that manner displays a dogmatism that is decidedly unscientific. It is quite coherent to accept the consensus epidemiological realities of COVID, the efficacy and safety of the vaccines, and simultaneously disagree with compulsory measures to enforce treatment.

Agreed but in this specific context the issue concerns healthcare workers. Vaccines are mandatory in the army for obvious reasons, ones that are even more relevant for healthcare workers.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#204

Post by RobertRoberts »

> All medical procedures should be voluntary, or we go back to the times of lobotomy and forced sterilizations of minorities (and that's not as many decades back as you may think).

Just wanted to add this comment from the middle of this discussion.

There is so much irrationality these days that we need to have a solid foundation for our decision making and not based on the whims of the panicked masses.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#205

Post by [deleted] »

rglover wrote: post #170
hestefisk wrote: post #61

Whilst thousands of healthcare workers in the US —- those who are supposed to be proponents of public health measures and rational, scientific thinking - refuse to get vaccinated, ultimately resulting in stockpiles of vaccines getting destroyed … people in third world countries cannot get adequate access to vaccines. This is madness.

> Whilst thousands of healthcare workers in the US —- those who are supposed to be proponents of public health measures and rational, scientific thinking - refuse to get vaccinated [...] These people were considered heroes last year (and overwhelmingly exposed to this virus while everyone else stayed at home). Now their judgment is in question because they won't follow the herd, with all of their medical experience/e…

[deleted]

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#206

Post by rdedev »

orang2tang wrote: post #67
AuthorizedCust wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Could you imagine a news report about how the much touted vaccine efficacy of 95% didn't really pan out? It didn’t pan out because of Delta, a way more infectious variant that became common well after the 95% figure was determined. And it’s fully accurate to say that despite Delta, the vaccines are effective at preventing severe disease, hospitalization, and death. I think that’s a very good thing!

Anyone who took a biology class and paid attention could have told you that an efficacy-killing variant was an inevitability. Hell, even tinfoil hat Alex Jones said the same thing, and was for that specific instance, vindicated entirely. The top virologists didn't just "not take this into account", they willfully withheld this truth of how viruses operate in order to push a flakey, quickly-deteriorating product into…

Delta was first detected on india where at that time there was barely any vaccination coverage. And nobody knows from where omicron originated. You claim it could be leaky vaccines but it could have easily been from an immune compromised individual. Do you have any sources for the claim it was first found in a vaccinated individual ? I couldn't find any online

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#207

Post by listless »

strict9 wrote: post #92
hestefisk wrote: post #61

Whilst thousands of healthcare workers in the US —- those who are supposed to be proponents of public health measures and rational, scientific thinking - refuse to get vaccinated, ultimately resulting in stockpiles of vaccines getting destroyed … people in third world countries cannot get adequate access to vaccines. This is madness.

I agree with your sentiment, but the part about third world countries getting adequate access is more complicated than simply lacking access to shipments. In many parts of Asia and Sub-Saharan Africa, hesitancy, misinformation on social media, and lack of adequate institutions is now more of a hindrance than getting shipments. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/12/01/world/africa/coranavirus-...

I hope more people read this comment. I think there is a common misconception that we're hoarding vaccine while people in 3rd world countries are begging for it. That's just not true as far as I can tell. The vaccine hesitancy seems to be universal. I guess we can blame the internet for that too.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#208

Post by runako »

golemotron wrote: post #155
runako wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the key problem with the US now. Elected representatives are allowed to delegate law making. Congress does not delegate lawmaking, Congress delegates the execution of its powers to the Executive branch. This is how the country has functioned since the beginning, for it would be impractical for it to work otherwise. Say more: delegation will happen at some level, by definition. In military matters, every step or sho…

> Congress delegates the execution of its powers to the Executive branch That's the Constitution, not Congress. Regulation, as well, is not execution. Thomas's concurrence on Whitman v. American Trucking Ass’ns signals where things might go.

> Regulation, as well, is not execution.

This is an opinion that was not widely held for most of the last 100 years or so.

> Thomas's concurrence on Whitman v. American Trucking Ass’ns signals where things might go.

Definitely agree that our legal regime looks headed for major changes. I consider it likely that SCOTUS will reverse itself on a set of major principles, creating uncertainty for citizens and businesses until a new equilibrium is reached.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#209

Post by odessacubbage »

petesergeant wrote: post #30
bko wrote: post #3

> Doughty said the CMS lacked the authority to issue a vaccine mandate that would require more than 2 million unvaccinated healthcare workers to get a coronavirus shot. > "There is no question that mandating a vaccine to 10.3 million healthcare workers is something that should be done by Congress, not a government agency," wrote Doughty. That's a good point. You can agree that its within the federal authority to mand…

> You can agree that its within the federal authority to mandate vaccines, but it really should be a decision made and explicitly endorsed by elected representatives rather than some agency I'm from a country (UK) where parliament has absolute power, but also where the populace largely trusts the civil service. Health decisions, prosecution decisions, and so on are explicitly devolved from the government so that they…

this is why it becomes a severe legitimacy problem when experts can no longer be rationally seen as apolitical actors.

Re: Courts block two Biden administration Covid vaccine mandates

#210

Post by mandmandam »

joebiden2024 wrote: post #180
rglover wrote: post #170

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Whilst thousands of healthcare workers in the US —- those who are supposed to be proponents of public health measures and rational, scientific thinking - refuse to get vaccinated [...] These people were considered heroes last year (and overwhelmingly exposed to this virus while everyone else stayed at home). Now their judgment is in question because they won't follow the herd, with all of their medical experience/e…

If they infect their patients or die from a preventable cause from their patients they are not heroes, they're just dumb.

> If they infect their patients

If you are suggesting that vaccination stops transmission, you're wrong. Might want to be explicit about that, dubiously named green account.

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