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The Stroad

strongtowns.org

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Re: The Stroad

#201

Post by noobermin »

asdff wrote: post #114
dghlsakjg wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cognitive dissonance is wild. The busiest and most economically vibrant areas in the US are the ones that deprioritize cars (main streets, downtowns, outdoor malls, bar districts). But if you try to change an existing area into a less car friendly area people absolutely lose their heads

There's no cognitive dissonance here really. People are just self interested. They don't want a bunch of bars because that means people will drive drunk and piss and puke all over their property stumbling back after last call. They don't want fewer lanes because its just going to turn their commute from work into even more of a bottleneck. They don't want a mall built near them because of the traffic bottlenecks it w…

The "less lanes means bottle neck" bit is not even true due to induced demand.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Induced_demand

Re: The Stroad

#202

Post by noobermin »

closeparen wrote: post #73
SantalBlush wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I truly believe the reason has more to do with being antisocial than anyone cares to admit. It's not always the car's mobility that people enjoy so much as the barrier it creates from the outside world.

Socialization needs norms. It’s no accident that relatively urbanized civilizations have relatively strict codes of behavior. America’s wild and free frontier spirit, God bless it, is less fun in a crowded subway.

And soul crushing traffic is wild and free? Or suburban strip malls are wild and free? Or endless cul de sacs? There is a lot of imposed structure to suburbia too, specifically because it is planned.

Re: The Stroad

#203

Post by paledot »

x3iv130f wrote: post #138
throwaway894345 wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I love how I can just jump on a bike here and be at a large supermarket in 5 minutes If you live in a large US city, this can still be very manageable. There are two large grocery stores and a small one as well as a Target and a metro line within a 5 minute walk of my house. Apart from the metro line, we didn't really prioritize the grocery stores, etc when looking for a house. That said, there are many downsides t…

Those places tend to be unafordable longterm for anyone making even twice the median salary.

That is ultimately a problem of scarcity. No one is building walkable communities, so the only remaining walkable communities are the "historic" ones that, surprise, everyone wants to live in because the alternative sucks. Elastic demand, inelastic supply.

Re: The Stroad

#204

Post by vinaypai »

cscurmudgeon wrote: post #80
_robbywashere wrote: post #21

I couldn’t agree more with the article. Unfortunately as for America I think people wouldn’t be very happy with turning their stroads into streets. There is a very toxic self centered car culture here; any impediment to it real or imaginary will make people very angry.

> There is a very toxic self centered car culture here; any impediment to it real or imaginary will make people very angry. I have seen more comments and people talking about this toxic car culture than seen it in real life. Not everyone is young, healthy and rich enough to bike. There is a historic racial divide. White folks live in more bike friendly places. https://theconversation.com/the-unbearable-whiteness-of-c…

Yet the rest of the world seems to manage just fine.

Re: The Stroad

#205

Post by noobermin »

refurb wrote: post #52
_robbywashere wrote: post #21

I couldn’t agree more with the article. Unfortunately as for America I think people wouldn’t be very happy with turning their stroads into streets. There is a very toxic self centered car culture here; any impediment to it real or imaginary will make people very angry.

The truth is there isn't that much demand for high density housing and walkable neighborhoods. They are mostly attractive to young childless adults. Some of them stick around once they have kids, but it's rare and usually reserved for the well-off who can afford private schools and family-sized homes. In SF you've got the parents who are happy to put their kids and groceries on the back of their bike, but most look t…

This is patently false given how expensive housing in cities is. It does vary but walkable neighborhoods can be pretty expensive in North America.

Re: The Stroad

#206

Post by mcv »

TrispusAttucks wrote: post #191

I hate driving to the city because I loathe these stroads but I don't see a way out. The ship has sailed, the roads are built. I don't think there is enough money to build ourselves out of this. This is the problem I see with most infrastructure in US. We overshot so much that the burden of maintenance is too great. It's easier to build once than maintain indefinitely.

The ship hasn't sailed. Yes, the roads are built, but they can be changed. New roads are constructed every day, and they could be better. And better roads will eventually save money, because of less accidents and more efficient land use. And they will bring in more money because they attract and enable more businesses and increase the value of land. It's still a good investment to look for improvement.

Re: The Stroad

#207

Post by zip1234 »

xmprt wrote: post #135
refurb wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced. It's not like your "better horse-carriage" example because the option already exists and people reject it. My colleagues in the Bay Area all lived in SF, then quickly moved to the subrurbs when they got older. Sure, there is no pedestrian/biking utopia in the US, but there are places where you can pretty much get by without a car. And many people don't choose to live there. I also spent some time i…

What were the reasons your friend gave for not wanting to live in SF? The common reasons I see are often that it's too expensive, there's too much crime and homeless people, and it's noisy and full of traffic. All of these are solvable problems. Cost is fixed by building more housing and traffic is solved by making the Bay Area less car centric (public transportation in the Bay Area isn't terrible but it can still be…

Yes, the funny thing is that because cities allow so many cars in the city center, congestion, pollution, and noise are everywhere, which makes people want to move to the suburbs, which means they have to drive to get anywhere, which makes congestion, pollution, and noise everywhere in the suburbs, which makes them want to move further out...

Re: The Stroad

#208

Post by knorker »

bluGill wrote: post #198
knorker wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a great channel that puts words to just why American cities are so dystopic. It really helps understand exactly what "induced demand" means. If you add another lane, some of the people on the bus will take the car, and thus the new lane is almost immediately full again. If you remove the bus lane, bike lane, sidewalk, same thing. Adding capacity for cars actually makes travelling by car worse . It also gives hop…

Induced demand is nonsense. If people leave the bus to drive it indicates your bus system is providing bad service. If more people drive it indicates that your city isn't filling its purpose as being a place where there are a lot of things to do. Cities need to figure out how to get ahead of induced demand not how use it as an excuse to be a worse city.. sure, this is a hard problem, with many options that make somet…

Induced demand is not nonsense at all.

I don't have a car. If there were capacity to drive, I would.

If a bunch of capacity to drive was added, I'd buy a car.

So that's one data point.

> If more people drive it indicates that your city isn't filling its purpose as being a place where there are a lot of things to do.

This sounds like an argument from someone who's never heard any alternative to American status quo.

> Cities need to figure out how to get ahead of induced demand

Wait, you said it's nonsense?

I'm starting to think you're misunderstanding me. Induced demand is not an excuse, it's an antipattern no be avoided, and it's not irreversible.

It's about how adding lanes to a road doesn't help traffic (see Katy, Texas).

Or the I101. Adding a lane, or improving the Caltrain? Clearly the latter will improve 101 traffic more.

Re: The Stroad

#209

Post by mcv »

omnicognate wrote: post #139

This puts a name to something I've found very strange the few times I've visited America. Places like the "stroad" picture are everywhere and they have a strangely desolate feel to them. It's not an environment I would want to live and work in. I have to take issue with this, though: > We like to call them "the futon of transportation" because, just as a futon is neither a particularly good bed nor a particularly goo…

I'm not a futon fan, but I did recognise this attack on futons as misguided. The article has a very important point, but addresses it poorly in my opinion. Partially because of this sort of unfair attack on something unrelated.

Re: The Stroad

#210

Post by Upvoter33 »

I've been a fan of "strong towns" for a while. I was wondering if anyone in the know here could answer: has it made much difference?
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