Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

coindesk.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 237 posts

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#201

Post by Gosper »

baby wrote: post #175
Gosper wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can fork endlessly and each fork won't matter one whit because they don't follow the longest chain secured with the most hashing power. Or your fork can follow the longest chain and abide by the rules so your transactions are accepted by the rest of the network, in which case you're using Bitcoin and haven't forked.

The problem is that you never know if you’re on a fork, or if there’s going to be a reorg.

So you then follow that chain and try transact on it. If your counterparty is satisfied then cool, carry on separately in your own bubble.

As you continue to transact with the rest of the world you'll realize you were both on a fork as you eventually encounter a chain with a much greater block height and you figure out that's where the current consensus lies.

You will still have your your UTXOs on the main chain since the transaction won't exist there. You and your counterparty figure out which chain is subjectively valuable to you.

In reality you ascertain the provenance of the software you're using the same way as all other software. If you fall for a supply chain attack and use the wrong software then all bets are off, you're vulnerable to your attacker and anything can happen.

You don't know if there's going to be a reorg in as much as relying on quantum mechanics you don't know you're not going to fall through the floor. Nothing is certain, only somewhere on the scale of probable to improbable. Look at the available current hashpower and decide where the incentives lie.

Anyway this is getting into the epistemological weeds. How do you know the universe/simulation you think you're in wasn't created last Thursday? https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Last_Thursdayism

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#202

Post by XorNot »

stale2002 wrote: post #154
bigdubs wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it's going to be weaponized to launder money and be made illegal eventually.

There are a multitude of other crypto coins, that have been around for a long while, that similarly provide lots of privacy, and yet they aren't illegal. People have been yelling about this all being made illegal for literally a decade, and it hasn't happened yet.

Why would any of this be made illegal? It's a jurisdictional enforcement issue, that isn't targeted at the asset - it's targeted at the individual who thinks they're going to make large financial transactions and not meet the KYC requirements - which will come up when you have to declare how you attained a whole lot of assets or cash to the IRS.

Of course, you could not do all those things...but it would be just as illegal and lead to you being just as in jail (and your assets seized) as it would for any other currency.

So sure: technically you can hide a bunch of stuff with BTC, but you can do that with USD just fine too (cash is pretty untraceable). The moment you get caught though, you're just as screwed.

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#203

Post by nullc »

wmf wrote: post #101
rawtxapp wrote: post #19

One of the most interesting things in this experiment was the speedy trial imo. We now have an agreed way to change/improve consensus rules. It's very difficult to get a handful of people to agree on something, let alone all the different participants in this global/borderless system.

Taproot was proposed 2.5 years ago; maybe that's speedy in "Bitcoin core time".

The specification and software was finished a year ago: https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/pull/19953

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#204

Post by nullc »

UncleEntity wrote: post #133
nybble41 wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The other half of the Taproot update besides Schnorr signatures is support for MASTs: Merklized Abstract Syntax Trees. This allows you to create scripts (smart contracts) where only the used part of the script needs to be revealed when the funds are transferred. Other parts which were not used—for example, the clauses related to recovering funds in the event of a non-cooperating peer in a Lightning channel when the c…

So, basically, a dead code elimination scheme? I do wonder how it could ensure the code running is the actual code signed for as its hash would be different though.

Because the code is rearranged into a top level arbitrary tree ORs and the hashing commits to this tree.

At signing time, the signer reveals a hash for every non-taken branch, so that the commitment still checks that leaf being executed was an admissible one.

The dead-code elimination goes further than that, because at the top level this hash root is hidden inside a public key which can be a key controlled by all the participants jointly (or some subset if appropriate). At signing time if these top level parties are available and cooperate they can just sign, and no script is ever revealed, it's impossible for third parties to tell it was ever there-- saving resources and preserving privacy.

(And the possibility to complete the transaction using the script means they don't gain from failing to cooperate)

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#205

Post by Tepix »

atweiden wrote: post #131
Tepix wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You need a good initial distribution. With Bitcoin mining pools it looks like there's just as much centralization (if not more) as with proof of stake.

The difference being you don’t need to ask existing Bitcoin miners for permission to begin mining Bitcoin yourself. Conversely, staking is inherently impossible without first obtaining “stake” — and how can you obtain stake without the approval of existing stakers?

You don't need permission, but you do need money to buy mining hardware. Might as well buy a stake for that money instead. Same thing, isn't it?

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#206

Post by wruza »

k20CuozQmk wrote: post #140
bigdubs wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it's going to be weaponized to launder money and be made illegal eventually.

>and be made illegal eventually Allocation of resources to try and ban cryptocurrency (or encryption in general) is probably one of the dumbest things ever conceived, probably even more so than the drug war.

Regulators don’t have to ban cryptocurrency use among citizens, they only have to ban/overtax everyone trying to cash it out or to run a legal business in it, to reduce liquidity to a level when it’s more risky or expensive than regular laundering. Cryptokids may then play their encryption penny as usual.

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#207

Post by wruza »

wayoutthere wrote: post #138
bigdubs wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then it's going to be weaponized to launder money and be made illegal eventually.

The banks themselves launder money for organized crime. Why shouldn’t money laundering be available to the masses too?

It’s available. You just can’t enter the monopoly.

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#208

Post by Tepix »

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #146
Tepix wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bitcoins biggest innovation is moving transactions off of bitcoin. That tells you all about it's capabilities really. Why bother with this outdated tech when there are vastly more capable coins out there?

Because there are still more people to dupe into buying ASIC miners, as well as many more who haven't broken even yet. Can't you see what's at stake?!

Oh i thought the main motivation was to get more people to buy the coin to raise its price.

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#209

Post by wruza »

__MatrixMan__ wrote: post #149
Macha wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A currency that is not usable in China _or_ the West is inherently less valuable. Most of the bitcoin users are speculators, not people enamored by its value as a currency, and if they need to go to Lebanon to withdraw their gains in a fiat currency, then that is a serious negative.

We don't consider dollars less valuable if they're paid via American Express, even though it's less accepted than Visa. As long as there's a critical mass of users somewhere, the "who accepts what" problem reduces to a software problem that most people will ignore.

As long as there's a critical mass of users somewhere

All that mass lives in EU, US and China, and nowhere else, that’s where the argument breaks down. You can buy a nice rc toy with bitcoin, but some day you may need a place to live in and they will ask you where you got the money from. And you’ll say, ah, that’s from that illegal btc exchange.

Re: Taproot, Bitcoin’s long-anticipated upgrade, has activated

#210

Post by freddiecoleman »

Hjfrf wrote: post #132
freddiecoleman wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Incorrect. Please see https://twitter.com/0xfreddieC/status/1457289838470782978 Disclaimer; I run a Chia blockchain explorer

Why comment "incorrect" on a factually true statement? It's fine that you believe the dev is a nice person and will never dump on you, but they absolutely do hold a vast majority of issued chia.

You said Bram owns almost all the coins. That is not true.

https://www.chia.net/whitepaper/

Pages 18-21

You could say that he is on the board that manages the pre-farm but that is not the same thing.

Post reply on HN