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Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

wired.co.uk

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Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#201

Post by teawrecks »

wonderwonder wrote: post #16
raxxorrax wrote: post #8

> In some cases, people’s personal information could be accessed from Google searches. SEO providers should take a note here. > It warned parents to stop using the app and alleged that it might be illegally accessing people’s personal information If your API allows data extraction, it probably isn't a fault of any client. Perhaps they meant that creators could steal credentials. A problem with any software. I think t…

"I think this digital child managing system sounds moderately dystopian to be honest" I disagree, I have 2 kids in elementary school and it is very useful to be able to look up what the kids have scheduled for the day to determine what to dress them in, see what's for lunch and if I need to pack them something if they won't like the available option. Most importantly though its very helpful to look up what homework /…

I'm not against the app, but the use cases you gave sound like things the child needs to learn to do. If they have gym, they need to be responsible for remembering their stuff. If the cafeteria has food they don't like, maybe they learn to develop new tastes that day. And most importantly, I'd they have homework or tests that are due, the child should 1000% be solely responsible for this.

As you mention, I guess it can be a useful tool for a parent to keep their kid on track, because yeah obviously they're learning and they'll be forgetful. But IMO it would also make it too easy for an overbearing parent to prevent their child from learning important life skills, thinking they're helping.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#202

Post by henrikschroder »

JackFr wrote: post #36

"We don't have an open API" Sure you do. You just don't know it yet.

Even before the open app came along, people found enormous security holes in the system, because they were essentially operating with security-by-obscurity. It was super embarrassing for the city, they had to close the system for days while fixing it.

The official system has a mobile app, where it takes effort to figure out the API, and a SPA web app, where it is absolutely trivial to see which endpoints it is hitting and how.

And the ridiculousness of the city's defense that it's not open is made greater by the fact that if they had made an open API from the start, security should have been baked in from the start, which means they would have avoided embarrassing security incidents along the way. They already have all the components needed for a proper, public API. They're so close, and yet they're insisting that it's private, and that it's illegal to access their private API.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#203

Post by ClumsyPilot »

ftrobro wrote: post #169
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Puts a target on the back of anyone that earns a lot of money but doesn't live in a high security bunker" I find this unconvincing - firstly, most crime happens in poor neighbourhoods. Secondly, you don't need to know someone's salary to tell apart a rich neighbourhood or house from a poor one. Thirdly, high salary does not mean you have anything to steal, my friend earns a lot but all him money is in mortgage, stoc…

> most crime happens in poor neighbourhoods That's kind of my point. Let's say you live in a poor neighborhood but do some stock trading and suddenly make a large profit. That will be shown in public records, it's not just salaries that are public. You now have a target on your back. Criminals will not come to your house looking for a laptop, they will come looking for you, putting a gun to your head telling you to t…

"They will come looking for you, putting a gun to your head telling you to transfer your assets to them"

You talk about pragmatism but give a crime scenario out of Hollywood movies.

Do you mean bank transfer? Am I transferring a million dollars into an official bank account registered in the criminal's real name?

Do you mean I should sign a deed giving them possesion of my house, and that would hold up in court?

Any large transfer will trigger a multi-day KYC and security process at the bank. Are they going to hold me hostage for weeks?

There is a much easier crime that pays better and does not involve risk of death and leaving your fibgerprints all over: stealing a car, an expensive car.

That's why there are more car thefts than home robberies.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#204

Post by [deleted] »

ftrobro wrote: post #169
ClumsyPilot wrote: post #156

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Puts a target on the back of anyone that earns a lot of money but doesn't live in a high security bunker" I find this unconvincing - firstly, most crime happens in poor neighbourhoods. Secondly, you don't need to know someone's salary to tell apart a rich neighbourhood or house from a poor one. Thirdly, high salary does not mean you have anything to steal, my friend earns a lot but all him money is in mortgage, stoc…

> most crime happens in poor neighbourhoods That's kind of my point. Let's say you live in a poor neighborhood but do some stock trading and suddenly make a large profit. That will be shown in public records, it's not just salaries that are public. You now have a target on your back. Criminals will not come to your house looking for a laptop, they will come looking for you, putting a gun to your head telling you to t…

[deleted]

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#205

Post by henrikschroder »

ess3 wrote: post #48

Ah the joy of public procurement in Sweden. It's basically an extremely long requirement gathering process where the company the can promise the most for the least amount of money wins. Only problem is that the people ordering this are not the users and they just want to cover their backs, meaning that behemoths usually win because they're more trustworthy. I was in edu-tech world for a while in Sweden. The most frus…

The silliest part of the story is that Stockholm decided to build their own system, mostly because of dick-swinging reasons, because the actual needs of schoolchildren and parents across the country aren't that different!

It should be perfectly possible to have the same underlying system across the entire country.

And in a perfect world, there would be some kind of common API for all schools, and a competing app ecosystem where parents and teachers and children can pick the one they like the best.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#206

Post by jonfw »

cmurf wrote: post #161
pixl97 wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I can leave him to handle his own schoolwork It turns out that kids are not adults. Part of raising them is teaching them life skills such as time management is something that takes a of time and management. You may be lucky and have a child that manages time well, or you may have a contrarian that does what they want. Part of being that manager, is knowing exactly what you are managing and having readily available…

I am contrary. Around 12, I rejected homework, learned to manipulate and lie instead. It took many detentions and frustrated parents to get me reoriented. I can completely understand kids who don't like being told to be a rote learning little worker bee who does what's told without question. Why do this at all? Why do it this way? No one else cares, they just want it over with as fast as possible, but the same crap c…

If your kid is a critical thinker and has problems with the school system, but is still learning, that's fine. If your kid is two years behind his age group in mathematics- that's less fine.

Part of being a good parent in this scenario is being able to tell the difference. Data can probably help- is my kid getting a D because he doesn't turn things in, or because he can't do long division?

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#207

Post by teawrecks »

dgfitz wrote: post #166
matheusmoreira wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> parents should have no insight on what their kids are doing unless the kid decides to tell the parent As a kid this is exactly what I believed. Parents believe otherwise, of course.

Do you have children? Honest question.

Also don't have kids. I'm in my 30s. Totally agree with the other commenter. As a kid in school, I had to learn to be responsible for things, it was my responsibility to decide what I could handle on my own and what I told my parents about, and I paid the price when I dropped the ball. Yeah, there are always a few kids who need more help learning these skills than others, and I could see the app in the hands of good parents being useful. But I don't want to live in a world full of people whose parents never trusted them.

I feel like one of those old people complaining that "kids these days aren't allowed to go play on their own, climb a tree, scrape their knees, etc". But this seems really troubling on a whole new psychological level. IMO kids need autonomy to mature, which can't happen if their parent can "magically" know anything.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#208

Post by aenis »

It would be interesting to know what contractor delivered the original $120m mess, and actively sabotaged open source efforts. The combination of large budget and terrible result suggest some of the very large contractors used to doing work for fortune 500 companies.

Shame on those who work there.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#209

Post by mattbee »

Diggsey wrote: post #83
wonderwonder wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know if you have kids, I am guessing not, if I am wrong, my apologies. Knowing what your kids have due for school is not micromanaging its a core part of being a good parent. I know if my kid has a math test so it lets me sit down with him and review for his test, it allows me to ensure he knows the basis for whatever comes next in his curriculum. Terribly overbearing parents are not good but I think people a…

That's absolutely micromanaging and negative. The goal of school isn't just to pass the tests. If a kid fails to revise for a test, but it doesn't matter because their parent will just look up the schedule and force them to revise, then they learn nothing beyond what's in the test. If they fail to revise and as a result do badly at the test, then next time they might actually take the initiative and revise through th…

If they fail to revise and as a result do badly at the test, then next time they might actually take the initiative and revise

Hahaha no. Have you met an 8 year old? Homo economicus they are not.

Re: Stockholm parents built their own school app, then the city called the cops

#210

Post by watwut »

raxxorrax wrote: post #20
wonderwonder wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think this digital child managing system sounds moderately dystopian to be honest" I disagree, I have 2 kids in elementary school and it is very useful to be able to look up what the kids have scheduled for the day to determine what to dress them in, see what's for lunch and if I need to pack them something if they won't like the available option. Most importantly though its very helpful to look up what homework /…

As I said, as a kid I would have hated this. I don't think kids benefit from this kind of overbearing parenting in the long run. Better than being neglected, I guess. Perhaps this is useful for very young children, but knowing myself I would have broken out of there as quickly as possible.

It is not like this would be secret in the past. The ones most likely yo not tell are actually 6-7 years old who genuinely forgot and then are stressed cause teacher is complains.
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