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Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

economist.com

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Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#201
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In my experience, you get what you pay for there. The problem is, most companies who offshore are being cheapskates, and go bottom barrel. Then we Americans who work with them are thinking 'wow, people from country X are terrible programmers.' But not universally true. Amazing talent exists in India for example, but they command much higher prices.

Why don't they compare to work from cheapest almost finished boot camp graduates doing freelancing work in USA... And then extend that performance to describe your average USA based developer...

Fair and interesting point. I've been a programmer for a long time, and I'd say 90% of 'bootcampers' I've encountered are similarly awful. I think we're on like our 7th interviewee now and yet to find one that can write a single function compilable code on the fly.

To answer your question, it's because most people aren't. You typically work with one or two brilliant people, a buncha midrangers, then ... those.

However, when you get folks from other countries, it's typically only because your company is trying to cut costs and hires some really cheap body shop. So we don't meet the brilliant people from other countries, and are lucky to encounter the midrangers. And they don't stick around long.

I was once so excited that a person we got from said body shop offshore was truly brilliant. Like, a person hired as Java but happened to know C and ASM and the inner workings of the linux kernel. He asked if he could help me with a couple (harder) things I was working on, and was amazing. As you may imagine, he stayed for about a month before moving to better things. I begged my company to poach him, but our contract forbid it.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#202

You guys are missing it. This leads straight to outsourcing.

Yes. There's no room for current American dev salaries in a world where remote-first jobs are a norm. Sure there are timezone differences, but EST is doable for Europe. 08:00 EST = 13:00 UTC, so working 8h in EST means 13:00-15:00 -> 21:00-23:00 in European timezones. Some people may even prefer it. Europe has a larger population of devs that's underutilized because it's dispersed among multiple countries. India is t…

You do realize that what you are describing could have happened any time in the last years or decades for the same reasons but didn’t? The conditions also didn’t really change to make this more true.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#203

You guys are missing it. This leads straight to outsourcing.

Yes. There's no room for current American dev salaries in a world where remote-first jobs are a norm. Sure there are timezone differences, but EST is doable for Europe. 08:00 EST = 13:00 UTC, so working 8h in EST means 13:00-15:00 -> 21:00-23:00 in European timezones. Some people may even prefer it. Europe has a larger population of devs that's underutilized because it's dispersed among multiple countries. India is t…

This happening. I live in Europe and number of American companies hiring here has skyrocketed over the last 18 months. And it's great. European tech compensation is finally starting to rise. I don't think it will ever match the insanity that is the Bay Area. But a senior engineer making ~€200k total compensation while living in Germany is no longer unheard of.

Anecdotally I've heard from Indian colleagues that wages back home are also rising fast.

In the end I think this will balance out in favor of Europe/India and against the Bay Area. Which is fine by me. But I understand that the $500k/year Palo Alto people are getting nervous...

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#204

Not mentioned enough on this topic: not all engineers are software engineers and not all software engineers never need to touch hardware. If you plan to work on/with web frameworks, advertisements, data science, or pure CS topics for your whole career, then there's probably no excuse to force you to come into the office 5 days a week. But good luck doing that as a software engineer at a company like SpaceX, Tesla, In…

> SpaceX, Tesla, Intel, AMD, defense contractors One of those things is not like the other things (it's the one where you build things that are explicitly designed to kill human beings). Not sure if you were calling that the coolest work, I certainly wouldn't call it that.

I think it was more about having physical hardware that you work with which might not be easy to bring home consistently.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#205

Not mentioned enough on this topic: not all engineers are software engineers and not all software engineers never need to touch hardware. If you plan to work on/with web frameworks, advertisements, data science, or pure CS topics for your whole career, then there's probably no excuse to force you to come into the office 5 days a week. But good luck doing that as a software engineer at a company like SpaceX, Tesla, In…

> SpaceX, Tesla, Intel, AMD, defense contractors One of those things is not like the other things (it's the one where you build things that are explicitly designed to kill human beings). Not sure if you were calling that the coolest work, I certainly wouldn't call it that.

Those things are also insurance against being killed. Are you supposed to just hope the bad people don't pick you? No, you invest in offense so you can have a better defense.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#206

Not mentioned enough on this topic: not all engineers are software engineers and not all software engineers never need to touch hardware. If you plan to work on/with web frameworks, advertisements, data science, or pure CS topics for your whole career, then there's probably no excuse to force you to come into the office 5 days a week. But good luck doing that as a software engineer at a company like SpaceX, Tesla, In…

> SpaceX, Tesla, Intel, AMD, defense contractors One of those things is not like the other things (it's the one where you build things that are explicitly designed to kill human beings). Not sure if you were calling that the coolest work, I certainly wouldn't call it that.

I think it's pretty cool. And I think that kind of work needs people who think it's cool, or else it'll only attract evil people.

There's nothing wrong with building weapons for defense. It's arguably the entire purpose of nukes at this point.

Even for offense, other countries are working hard to build out their arsenals.

I'm personally fine with building AI weapons, for example. If a contract opportunity appears, I might take it. After all, where else are you going to see the most advanced weaponry in the history of mankind?

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#208
For everyone being compelled by their inner "Dog in the Manger" crying outsourcing to cheap countries. Outsourcing is already in play since 3 decades, but the actual salaries are kept in check by a stack of intermediaries. Hiring remote workers directly would greatly speed up the process of salary equalisation (adjusted for COL). This in turn would put pressure on other industries in these countries and accelerate technical investments in productivit rather than relying on suply of cheap labour.

In the end after some 1-2 decaedes we'd wake up in much flatter world with perhaps reasons to not impose limits on labour mobility across borders.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#209
post #19

Everyone should keep in mind that water seeks its own level. And think of this on a global scale. I've been working remotely for almost a decade as a senior software engineer. Now, post-Covid, almost everyone realizes they can do the same. Salaries are going to drop in the "rich world", and it's not just because people are now fleeing places like SF/SV to lower cost of living areas. We are also beginning to compete g…

>> We are also beginning to compete globally, far more than ever before with the ease of remote work. Qualified engineers can be found for 1/10th of the price with "near shore" companies in the "rich world". Yep. I've said it many times here and basically anywhere I can: Clamoring for remote-only work, maximum-introvert, never fly somewhere, don't value in-person communication/meetings/etc is a dangerous game to be p…

As an Eastern European I can assure you that high five figures(is dollars) are by no means considered "huge" around here.

It's actually more or less the market rate.

Re: Remote-first work is taking over the rich world – research hints at why

#210
> ... There is a more intriguing possibility, however. Work that is largely done remotely may be more efficient compared with an office-first model.

I don't think in-person real-time communication is always effective. No, I personally think it's one of the least method of communication that can happen in an office environment when the topic gets slightly complex (that is, if the topic is complex enough for you to write a memo about it).

For those topics, I love to communicate with some "written" form, such as in an email, posts etc. Because doing the "writing" part allow me to conduct some research and analyses on the topic (usually took 10 minutes), which will in turn increase the quality of my reply.

If you standing right in front of me and asked a question that require a complex answer, then my reply will probably make me look like an idiot, because I might not able to discover all the information that I need to process and output within 30 seconds. Not very effective in my opinion.

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