Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year • Hacker News Board

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#201

Post by dredmorbius » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 3:25 AM UTC

dredmorbius wrote: post #174

WalterBright wrote: post #5

20% of Norway's GDP comes from pumping oil out of the ground and selling it for others to burn. If they were really green that would stop.

How much of Boeing's aircraft fleet on which you worked is powered by those same fossil fuels? Hypocritical facile criticism is hypocritically facile. What's notable about Norway is that back in 1968 , as the country was first becoming aware of its oil wealth through the newly-realised North Sea deposits (shared with the UK), the country had the foresight to tap the advice of an Iraqi ex-pat who advised the country t…

Erm, this is the story I'd meant to link:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28780108

The final "8" got truncated above, leading to a random 10 year old comment...

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#202

Post by sandworm101 » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 3:30 AM UTC

supperburg wrote: post #133

njovin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar in California and other states. The states typically tax gasoline and since electrics don't use any they are implementing special fees on electric vehicle purchases to make up for lost revenue. One would think that the savings in pollution (not only for the car itself, but the transport of the fuel, pollution from refineries, etc.) would offset any lost revenue from gas taxes. What makes this really nonsensic…

Because in the states if you didn’t do that a bunch of idiots would accuse you of disproportionately taxing the poor since they can’t afford electric cars. Social justice at its finest.

>> disproportionately taxing the poor since they can’t afford electric cars.

There are many layers to this. Rich people, people who own houses, have a better time with electric cars than poor people who rent apartments. Poor people also cannot afford to replace a car every decade. They shy away from tech such as batteries that have life expectancies less than a decade. Certainly few second or third-hand buyers want to purchase a battery pack with only a few years left in it. So the separation between gas an electrics isn't all about sticker price, but it is about money.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#203

Post by BLKNSLVR » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 3:30 AM UTC

ostenning wrote: post #83

thomasfl wrote: post #14

There's a huge price difference between electric cars and gas fueled cars here in Norway. Gas fueled car buyers have to pay both 25 percent VAT and an additional tax on purchase. Buyers don't have to pay neither of those taxes if they buy an electric car. The singer of the group A-ha, Morten Harket, bought an electrical car in 1989 and refused to pay road tolls and ignored all the subsequent fines. That got a lot of…

Meanwhile in Australia: electric cars are getting taxed more to support the aging oil infrastructure

Australia is also still lagging behind in its vehicle emissions standards[0][1].

[0]: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/16/wrong-tu...

[1]: https://theconversation.com/australias-car-industry-ignored-...

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#204

Post by atq2119 » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 3:36 AM UTC

clouddrover wrote: post #130

anonporridge wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This makes me wonder if the Colonial Pipeline cyberattack indirectly led to an acceleration of EV adoption. All of these events make more and more people recognize the relative weakness and fragility of an oil based civilization compared to an electric one.

You can have equivalent cyberattacks on power stations and EV charging networks.

And (admittedly depending on what type of housing you live in) you can have your own solar on the roof, set up to still supply you even if the grid is down.

Hollywood is doing society a disfavour by misrepresenting the apocalypse. EVs and bicycles are the true modes of transport when trouble starts.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#205

Post by atq2119 » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 3:43 AM UTC

ars wrote: post #112

bellyfullofbac wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Geezus, must be nice to have that kind of rainy day fund. Grossly over-simplifed: "Shut down the economy? Oh well, here's 80 billion dollars to keep everyone fed and warm."

For a few years. But divide that fund by the population and it suddenly doesn't seem as much. Human capital is far more valuable, but most of the industrial knowledge of Norway is in energy production.

Energy production isn't going to go away.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#206

Post by fy20 » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 3:54 AM UTC

anonporridge wrote: post #66

It will be interesting if there comes a point where ICE vehicles are such a small minority of all vehicles, that supporting infrastructure (petrol stations, traditional mechanics, oil change services, etc) starts to collapse and disappear. There may still be some infrastructure for special use cases like long haul trucking or industrial vehicles, but it might become untenable for the average consumer to own an ICE ve…

Well it will happen eventually if countries go 100% electric, but I doubt it will affect the average consumer for a long time.

Fuel stations make most of their profits from non-fuel items (in my country, fuel stations sell some of the best coffee), and people will still need those when commuting or travelling. In Norway some fuel stations have started to convert pumps to EV chargers [0], however there isn't really much cost needed to keep a couple of fuel pumps around. Petrol can last a few months in tanks, and diesel can last up to a year.

People are still going to be using petrol for motorbikes and gardening equipment for a long time, and diesel is going to be used by trucks and construction machinery for even longer.

[0] https://insideevs.com/news/532464/fuel-stations-norway-fast-...

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#207

Post by oh_sigh » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:14 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #169

njovin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar in California and other states. The states typically tax gasoline and since electrics don't use any they are implementing special fees on electric vehicle purchases to make up for lost revenue. One would think that the savings in pollution (not only for the car itself, but the transport of the fuel, pollution from refineries, etc.) would offset any lost revenue from gas taxes. What makes this really nonsensic…

I mean, I think it's OK to charge vehicle owners some kinda usage fee to reflect the cost of congestion, road wear, traffic accidents etc., but it's very poorly implemented as is. An obvious solution seems to be to tax tires which are the dirtiest part of an electric car, need to be replaced moderately regularly but not too often, and which wear down in proportion to the amount and and intensity of use. Offroaders an…

You could have something similar to dyed diesel for tires, where, say, orange tires are untaxed and can only be used on private property/off-road, and regular tires can be used on public roadways.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#208

Post by oh_sigh » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:16 AM UTC

plantain wrote: post #139

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Colorado at least it's not that high. $50 plus a small amount (today) that goes up over time to no more than $96 in the 2031-2032 fiscal year. It's CERTAINLY a lot less than you'd be paying in gas tax if you used your car an average amount. Taxes aren't punishment, anyway. Especially "road use taxes", which are, in this case, used to repair the roads you're driving on. [1] https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/11486

Taxes are a form of punishment, they're a tool to discourage certain behaviours relative to others. Whether roads are funded by road taxes or primary school fees doesn't matter - if we want to promote a behaviour we subsidize it; if we want to discourage it, we tax it. Whether and how the books balance in the background isn't relevant.

That's a simplistic view of one type of tax. If everyone in a community wants the city government to build a recreation center, and then government levies a tax on the citizens to pay for building/operating the center, are they being punished?

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#209

Post by yuliyp » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:21 AM UTC

anigbrowl wrote: post #169

njovin wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Similar in California and other states. The states typically tax gasoline and since electrics don't use any they are implementing special fees on electric vehicle purchases to make up for lost revenue. One would think that the savings in pollution (not only for the car itself, but the transport of the fuel, pollution from refineries, etc.) would offset any lost revenue from gas taxes. What makes this really nonsensic…

I mean, I think it's OK to charge vehicle owners some kinda usage fee to reflect the cost of congestion, road wear, traffic accidents etc., but it's very poorly implemented as is. An obvious solution seems to be to tax tires which are the dirtiest part of an electric car, need to be replaced moderately regularly but not too often, and which wear down in proportion to the amount and and intensity of use. Offroaders an…

Tires last too long to make this practical, I think. Let's say a set of tires lasts 30,000 miles. California's current gas tax is 67c/gallon. Let's assume a very efficient 40 mpg. That's 1.6 cents / mile. You'd need a $500 tax on a set of tires to compensate. if you did that, though, you'd need to prevent people from importing tires from other states, which is tricky to do.

Re: Norway to hit 100% electric vehicle sales by early next year

#210

Post by adrianN » Thu, Oct 07, 2021, 4:41 AM UTC

plantain wrote: post #139

SomeCallMeTim wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Colorado at least it's not that high. $50 plus a small amount (today) that goes up over time to no more than $96 in the 2031-2032 fiscal year. It's CERTAINLY a lot less than you'd be paying in gas tax if you used your car an average amount. Taxes aren't punishment, anyway. Especially "road use taxes", which are, in this case, used to repair the roads you're driving on. [1] https://afdc.energy.gov/laws/11486

Taxes are a form of punishment, they're a tool to discourage certain behaviours relative to others. Whether roads are funded by road taxes or primary school fees doesn't matter - if we want to promote a behaviour we subsidize it; if we want to discourage it, we tax it. Whether and how the books balance in the background isn't relevant.

Technically we want to punish people for driving a car. Electrics are of course better than ICEs, but they're still a lot worse that cycling or taking a train. It would of course be nice if the infrastructure wasn't optimized for cars...