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How The Hell Is This My Fault?

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201–210 of 307 posts

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#201
post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> she chose to make this public But she did this on her personal blog! She didn't go running to the media or fan this story. The story got picked up here then exploded. That was not her choice, and it caused her privacy to be invaded again -- by folks like us trying to figure out who she is, how credible she is, what she should or shouldn't have done, how she's feeling, etc. -- all while she's still recovering from t…

There was actually a considerable effort by friends of hers to get this story promoted. And it worked, very well.

So put her friends on trial then. I really though society in general grew out of punishing related persons for the crimes of others....

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's simple, I would have probably done that had I thought it through, but the thought that she would object never crossed my mind, my bad. > : forwarding identity to PG. : you seem like a very smart guy. this can not have been an omission. All I passed was her email address and her first name, both of which were very easily found*, and I told her exactly how those were obtained. If you think that I did that purposef…

Thank you for your explanation. > the thought that she would object never crossed my mind, my bad. I believe you! And here then is the point for all geeks present: Clearly even smart, informed, people make mistakes . The notion of 'buyer beware' is the ethics of hucksters, not Hackers.

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Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#203
post #191

Arrington and TC irritate the crap out of me! There was a time when I loved to read TC, but now they are so obnoxiously arrogant and dirty that it makes me cringe to see links from them in HN posts. Why would they drop Paul Graham's name into this empty story? Can someone explain to me how this is anybody's fault other than the jerk that robbed the lady (and maybe the lady's naïveté)? I know AirBnB has made a lot of…

> Why would they drop Paul Graham's name into this empty story?

Paul Graham waded into it by posting on HN[1] with a statement that directly contradicts the victim's version of events. It's relevant, and TechCrunch covering it should come as no surprise to anyone.

> I know AirBnB has made a lot of people angry with their business tactics, but how are they responsible for this crime?

Per PG's post: "Airbnb has been offering to fix it..." Whether or not they're legally responsible, they've got a PR problem on their hands.

[1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2822721

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#204

Sounds to me like Paul Graham has made a fairly fundamental and common mistake, which is to say believing the AirBnb people when they reassure him that everything is under control and there's no fire here. Paul, if you actually read the statements made by the CEO on news.ycombinator.com, it's very clear that AirBnb are the primary, if not only, ones at fault here. I don't want to call Paul a liar, since it seems like…

Air BNB is specifically not an insurrance company. They technically have no obligation to pay in the case of any damage. For them, the best possible course of action was to bury this case. However, now that it's come into the public light they're torn between (a) trying to re-iterate to everyone that they do not have liability and (b) trying to look good by doing the "Right Thing". As a business owner, I feel for the…

Now you have to be an insurance company to do the "right thing"? Airbnb had a chance to take care of this from the very beginning and we wouldn't even be talking about this right now if they had. That's the point.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#205
Here is something I don't understand.

San Francisco is a tiny city (heck, I've walked from one end to the other; it's just 7 miles x 7 miles, or 11km x 11km for the rest of you). Most of the principles in this sad tale live in San Francisco. HOW HARD IS IT TO JUST WALK OVER AND MEET THIS PERSON?? Instead of relying on PR and telephones and email and blogs; just walk over, give her a hug, talk to her and treat her right! Put a human touch on all this interaction, people! It's not like she's living in Podunk, Nebraska (no offense to Nebraskans) and out of reach. She's living right here!

Close your laptops. Put down your iPhones. Just meet her in person and solve her problems. I am willing to bet that a face-2-face with the principles will solve more problems than all the articles in TC, blog posts, etc.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#206
post #12

That's extremely interesting. When the victim EJ posted (was it Thursday?) about being intimidated and lied to by Airbnb, it was obviously very different from what they were saying publicly. I figured though she is very very upset about everything and overreacting. However, this new report is a second witness that Airbnb is playing dirty behind the scenes while acting all nice guy in public, and PG defending it. Prob…

I can't imagine that AirBnb are "done for" after one such incident. I think the real issue here is that HN readers, the kind who root for startups to "stick it to the man", so to speak, are disheartened to see their champions acting like the old regime. That's why this topic, and the public bun fight in the aftermath have generated so much discussion.

I can easily imagine they are done for. Not because of the PR backlash, but because what they are doing is already quasi-illegal in a lot of places and one juicy story like this that the media, lawyers and politicians can jump on is just about all it will take to eventually remove the "quasi" part.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok but doesn't Airbnb have much bigger fish behind them now that could help with this? (Ashton Kutcher, Andreeson, DST, General Catalyst) I would be surprised if these companies have not offered the support of their PR teams to help Airbnb dig themselves out of this hole.

Possibly. PG to me is the 'father' of all these start-ups, and as I wrote I have personal reasons to believe that he is exactly the right guy for this. What is needed most at this moment in time is someone with a capacity for empathy and some adult supervision. PR can come afterwards, my own view of PR is that is mostly about putting something bad in as favorable light as possible, right now there are two parties tha…

OK, I, and others, have already piled on about the inappropriateness of tracking down EJ and passing her personal information without her permission to an investor...but I just want to nitpick specifically on your viewpoint of PR, which you should carefully reconsider in light of the mistakes you've already admitted to (i.e. "I would have probably [asked permission to forward a terrified and angry victim's contact information to an investor of the company that she is waging a public battle with] had I thought it through, but the thought that she would object never crossed my mind, my bad"

Yes, PR people are professionals whose jobs are to make something look good; companies don't hire PR pros to rip the company.

So yes, the cynical take is that PR will spin bad things into a positive light...but which major stakeholder of a company --including its founders -- wouldn't? Even when a founder or lead developer of a large company issues a mea culpa that starts with "We screwed up...", there has still been a calculation made that such an admittance is good public relations and relatively free of legal liability.

Your implication may be that PR pros are more likely to have less of a conscience, and since they aren't hard-working developers and builders like the rest of us, they are more likely to lie with a smile...

I can't point to any empirical evidence that they do or don't, and I predict neither can you. But what you did, and what the coffee-drinking co-founder reportedly did (from EJ's perspective), make a very strong case for the importance of a competent PR person.

Quite simply, that competent PR person is the overseer of what has been said so far by the company, by the plaintiff, by the lawyers, and by the media. He or she, ideally, when queried by any of these parties, will answer such queries honestly with what he knows has been previously stated and/or promised by the other party, or will say "I don't know that, let me ask [x,y,z] and I will get back to you."

I understand how that's not a good enough decisive answer for anyone here, but that's the limits of human communication when dozens of stakeholders are involved. Some things are delayed because due diligence requires it...such is the complexity of life.

So who knows what really went on in the mind of the co-founder when he asked EJ to coffee. But according to her, we might assume that he himself assumed that EJ was properly comforted enough to send her a get-down-to-business email. She apparently was not. How could such a drastic misunderstanding happen when a co-founder, in your perfect world, is ostensibly the end-all point of proper decision and action?

To compound the problem, Brian Chesky writes the prototypical PR statement that looks downright shady in retrospect after EJ swiftly responds with a dramatic blog post that also accuses someone at airbnb of attempting to silence her blog.

Let's give Chesky the benefit of the doubt that he didn't know or condone such a request. Well, some well-intended white (from the investors' perspective) or black (from many other people's perspective) knight from airbnb apparently did so.

On top of all of that, EJ accuses airbnb of cold shouldering her until the blog blowup at HN. Hell, I don't remember the exact timeline, but I doubt even most of the avid participants in this thread do...certainly none of the newcomers won't bother sketching out a flowchart for themselves.

Boy, having one competent person be the sole point of contact -- even just a smooth-talking PR underling -- sure sounds good right now. Even if we give the co-founders the benefit of the doubt of being as upfront and willing to help as possible, the apparent innocent miscommunications have made many people, including MA, very jaded.

And now you've thrown yourself into the mix, in the belief that this is all caused by the immature incompetent behavior of the airbnb executive team (boy, that's a great message to future airbnb investors) and failed PR...don't you think it's a wee bit ironic to make your "I-tracked-her-down-and-gave-her-info-to-PG-because-I-can't-see-PG-screwing-this-up" comment in a HN thread based on a TechCrunch post in which a self-professed fan of airbnb accuses PG of outright lying?

If providing fodder for another top-voted HN thread that accuses airbnb of a coverup isn't a screw-up, then, well...

In any case, you might be a well-intentioned, smart developer and entrepreneur. But you've made mistakes that I hope even an undergrad in communications wouldn't have. I hate to be the one speaking out for PR professionals, but for godssake, hire one in your next large-scale venture.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok but doesn't Airbnb have much bigger fish behind them now that could help with this? (Ashton Kutcher, Andreeson, DST, General Catalyst) I would be surprised if these companies have not offered the support of their PR teams to help Airbnb dig themselves out of this hole.

Possibly. PG to me is the 'father' of all these start-ups, and as I wrote I have personal reasons to believe that he is exactly the right guy for this. What is needed most at this moment in time is someone with a capacity for empathy and some adult supervision. PR can come afterwards, my own view of PR is that is mostly about putting something bad in as favorable light as possible, right now there are two parties tha…

[deleted]

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#209
post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude, have you even read the OP? The AirBnB thing has left the building, now it is Arrington drama. Throw in PG, and this is going to be HN fodder for days. C'est la vie.

Yea man we live for this shit!

+1, insightful.

Re: How The Hell Is This My Fault?

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually I think her words have done an excellent job of explaining why she feels the way she does and I don't want anyone else invading her privacy any more than it already has been violated. For that matter, I think you've got some nerve tracking her down, handing her contact details over to an Airbnb investor and claiming to be helping her to find an objective independent mediator.

Paul is not just 'some AirBNB investor', if you want to picture it that way, sure go ahead. AirBNB has - in my opinion - been doing the very wrong thing here for much too long and this will blow up at some point if something isn't done pronto. Tracking her down sounds like it was real work, believe me it wasn't, and as I explained below I gave her some hints on how to make that a lot harder than it was last night. I…

I'm sorry, but It's not your call as to whether pg is objective or not. Like you, I'm sure we all think a lot of him, whether we've met him or not. But you just, at best, took agency away from someone who, it's totally reasonable to assume, is freaking out about her lack of agency right now.

We believe you when you say your intentions were good, but that doesn't really excuse the actions.

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