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Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

bbc.co.uk

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Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#201

Post by ajsnigrutin »

bjornsing wrote: post #193
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employers need employees, and employees need employers. If you have orders to fill, and noone to do the work, you're just as fscked, as if you have bills to pay, and no money to do it. Employers get an added benefit of being able to wait it out a bit, since they generally have more money than workers, and workers have unemployment benefits, which means that they can wait it out (until the benefits stop). The problems…

> Employers need employees, and employees need employers. If you have orders to fill, and noone to do the work, you're just as fscked, as if you have bills to pay, and no money to do it. Na, not really. An employer can just raise their prices until incoming orders and delivery capacity align. That’s a sustainable situation for the employer. There may be some opportunity cost, but they’re doing okay. An employee on th…

https://twitter.com/DevitaDavison/status/1391415254710632448

Yeah, good luck raising prices prices.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#202

Post by nradov »

tsimionescu wrote: post #142
nradov wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's one of the problems with minimum wage laws: they prevent the labor market from clearing. Some people want to work but due to lack of skills their labor is worth less than the minimum and thus no employer will hire them. I understand that people can't live on less than the minimum wage. But the solution to that is a proper social safety net, not imposing arbitrary minimum wage limits.

The problem with this idea is that, beneath some wage floor, workers lose money by working, and would be better off growing food somewhere. The minimum wage is often below this floor, actually - people working minimum wage are often overall paying to work.

Growing food where? Someone owns all the productive farmland and they aren't giving it away. But people who are willing to work hard and get dirty can certainly find jobs in agriculture.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#203

Post by ajsnigrutin »

agumonkey wrote: post #190
ajsnigrutin wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employers need employees, and employees need employers. If you have orders to fill, and noone to do the work, you're just as fscked, as if you have bills to pay, and no money to do it. Employers get an added benefit of being able to wait it out a bit, since they generally have more money than workers, and workers have unemployment benefits, which means that they can wait it out (until the benefits stop). The problems…

that's only partially true, as a company you have infinitely more leverage in society than an individual you weigh more, you're worth more, it doesn't last forever but the difference is staggering

You also have product to sell/deliver, and no unemployment benefits.

Many, many businesses have failed during the current plague situation... maybe not amazon and walmart, but a lot of small and middle sized businesses.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#204

Post by forz877 »

dbattaglia wrote: post #131
forz877 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the narrative a lot of these people living in the flyover states are fed on repeat 24/7. You'd think NYC , SF, LA were third world countries according to them. You can tell right from his comment why he likely doesn't have a job.

My wife and I have both been hearing this narrative from coworkers outside of where we live (in NYC), asking if we're living in a ghost town or warzone. It feels strange. By the way I think the term "flyover state" is probably a bit offensive to folks that happen to live outside of coastal cities.

It's bizarre but if you see the content they are watching and are fed it begins to make sense. They're never exposed to these places so they never have an opportunity to think for themselves.

Often times when I've gone to more rural/southern areas it's amazing how kind the people are - I think on both sides people just forget that there are just regular folk everywhere. The politics attempts to dehumanize.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#205

Post by vladvasiliu »

cbozeman wrote: post #188
whall6 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Why would I seek a job if the unemployment benefits pay me nearly as much to do nothing?

Because you have self-respect and shouldn't be taking handouts if you're capable of working? No one capable of working should be taking unemployment, ever. This is how social safety nets get demonized by politicians, and it works. A factory worker and mother of three who was making car parts from the start of COVID-19 until now and was never laid off and who never had the option of quitting work, fucking hates someon…

I mostly agree with you.

However, it may not (always) be that simple. The media here in France reports that some industries, in particular restaurants, are having a hard time finding employees, with not enough people applying and even employees who were there before Covid hit leaving.

I don't know how actually true this is, but when they (the media) ask people why they won't go back, the main reason doesn't seem to be a preference for sitting on ass, but rather a realization that given the wages, those jobs were a terrible proposition. They claim instead to be looking at how they can improve their situation, like looking for work in other industries, going back to school, etc. Which I think is a good thing. How many random empty bars does a country really need?

Now maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I hope that that's true and that this will at least increase wages for those jobs.

But I can't help but think that all this soul-searching is helped by government aid and that, sooner or later, when that runs out, the people will have to get back to those jobs and then, whatever rise there might have been, will be swept away.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#206

Post by briefcomment »

cbozeman wrote: post #188
whall6 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right. Why would I seek a job if the unemployment benefits pay me nearly as much to do nothing?

Because you have self-respect and shouldn't be taking handouts if you're capable of working? No one capable of working should be taking unemployment, ever. This is how social safety nets get demonized by politicians, and it works. A factory worker and mother of three who was making car parts from the start of COVID-19 until now and was never laid off and who never had the option of quitting work, fucking hates someon…

Taking the handouts is the most rational thing to do. Why would you expect people to do otherwise? Relying on unspoken normative rules is maybe possible in a society with well defined and perpetuated values, but in our current society, utility far outweighs values in decision making.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#207

Post by vladvasiliu »

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #196
heurisko wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

One of the stories I often hear, is that people have decided to move house to the countryside, as they are now able to work remotely. I don't know how true this is: are these people not concerned if their employer decides to reopen offices and require employees to work in the office again when the pandemic inevitably ends?

> One of the stories I often hear, is that people have decided to move house to the countryside, as they are now able to work remotely. This is the primary trick that journalists use in these stories: They find a couple examples of people doing something, interview them, and then pretend those people are a sample of a much larger movement. They don’t cite statistics or numbers, however easy to find, because putting a…

A counterpoint from France: media did report that for the first time in a very long time, home prices did slightly drop in Paris proper, while suburbs and "smaller cities" have seen a bigger rise than usual.

This means there must be more than just a handful of people leaving.

However, I do agree with GP's point about companies ending the WFH arrangements, especially given France's work culture. But then again, I've always found people around here to have a tendency of thinking fairly short-term.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#208

Post by bachmeier »

dbattaglia wrote: post #131
forz877 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's the narrative a lot of these people living in the flyover states are fed on repeat 24/7. You'd think NYC , SF, LA were third world countries according to them. You can tell right from his comment why he likely doesn't have a job.

My wife and I have both been hearing this narrative from coworkers outside of where we live (in NYC), asking if we're living in a ghost town or warzone. It feels strange. By the way I think the term "flyover state" is probably a bit offensive to folks that happen to live outside of coastal cities.

> By the way I think the term "flyover state" is probably a bit offensive to folks that happen to live outside of coastal cities.

It's not. It is, however, a certain way to get us to ignore anything you have to say.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#209

Post by peoplefromibiza »

bko wrote: post #74
benou wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm sorry to hear that but keep in mind the job market is very different from one location to another and from one sector to another. The BBC is talking about truck drivers in the UK and it is hardly a surprise: UK used to rely heavily on eastern Europe workers in that area, and they vote (Brexit) to prevent exactly that. They got what they asked for. If anything, we can complain that the BBC article title is too gen…

In a market economy there is no such thing as a "shortage" of workers. You just don't want to meet the market price of the workers with that skill set. You could imagine a widget factory whose economics rely on paying employees X, it doesn't mean there's a "shortage" of workers, but the workers demand a wage that makes your work unprofitable. The fact is a lot of people are paid not to work through generous covid-rel…

> In a market economy there is no such thing as a "shortage" of workers

You can't meet the demand by producing more workers per hour in some plant though

If you need X doctors and only have X/2, no matter how much you pay them, they won't be enough.

Re: Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?

#210

Post by secondcoming »

vladvasiliu wrote: post #205
cbozeman wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you have self-respect and shouldn't be taking handouts if you're capable of working? No one capable of working should be taking unemployment, ever. This is how social safety nets get demonized by politicians, and it works. A factory worker and mother of three who was making car parts from the start of COVID-19 until now and was never laid off and who never had the option of quitting work, fucking hates someon…

I mostly agree with you. However, it may not (always) be that simple. The media here in France reports that some industries, in particular restaurants, are having a hard time finding employees, with not enough people applying and even employees who were there before Covid hit leaving. I don't know how actually true this is, but when they (the media) ask people why they won't go back, the main reason doesn't seem to b…

> The media here in France reports that some industries, in particular restaurants, are having a hard time finding employees

It's the same in the UK. Farmers cannot harvest some crops because the cheap EU labour is no longer present and locals won't do it.

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