Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI • Hacker News Board

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#201

Post by burgerbrain » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 9:59 PM UTC

gdcbyers wrote: post #198

burgerbrain wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"So in this little metaphor, the people play the role of the hostages, the government plays the role of the kidnappers (lawless criminals) and LulzSec play the role of the government (the good guys trying to save you) Interesting. Confusing, but interesting." Yes, you do seem rather confused. "you appear to be mistakenly thinking that LulzSec is her to protect you" I am under no such illusion. However , I do recogniz…

So the abuses LulzSec perpetrates are acceptable because they aren't as powerful as the big bad evil government? Or because they appear to hate the government as much as you? I also could not help but notice you ignored my other points and questions, so ill sum it up. How has anything LulzSec done been constructive to the cause you claim they represent?

I don't claim LulzSec represents any cause.

It is offtopic, but I respect LulzSec specifically because I think they have the potential to drive home the concepts and ramifications of computer security, a topic which I find particularly interesting and important for personal reasons.

As for them attacking non-government targets? I didn't address this at first because you are making too many assumptions about myself for it to be very interesting, however since you asked: 1) See the above. 2) Doesn't effect me, so I don't give a shit. 3) Funny as hell.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#202

Post by fleitz » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 10:01 PM UTC

baltcode wrote: post #196

fleitz wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most frightening is how the DPRK regards their neighbors to the south and how they have militarized their border to prevent the free flow of people. To start a war with another country, draw a line in the sand, militarize it and then imprison people because they want cross a line in the sand to be repatriated with their families is the mark of a very totalitarian regime. If it weren't for their military I don't think…

You know what is really funny about this? It applies (mostly) to any country I can think of.

I think that was largely the point of the Treaty of Westphalia.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#203

Post by burgerbrain » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 10:04 PM UTC

gdcbyers wrote: post #197

wnight wrote: post #168

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you suggesting that my distain for LulzSec and its methods are some how the result of brain washing or extreme trama? Yes. Absolutely. If such an organization did not exist, such that you weren't conditioned to accept their abuses, you would be appropriately horrified to hear about the abuses that are currently being committed. By exposing you to ridiculous premises like a color-coded terror threat level and li…

This response reeks of inaccurate presumptions about my beliefs, options and reasoning. Not to mention, you aren't even the guy I was replying to. But I will respond none the less because I believe in open conversation. >That you fixate on minor website inconvenience to these organizations ("vandalism") while ignoring the scale of the injustices going on shows you're hardly able to even think ill of these organizatio…

If these are just minor cases of "vandalism", then why do you care enough to write about it? You lend validity to the post you respond to by responding to it.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#204

Post by eric-hu » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 10:05 PM UTC

roc wrote: post #93

nathanb wrote: post #71

"it's entirely unacceptable to break into websites and commit unlawful acts" This is quite the hypocritical statement coming from the FBI. As far as I can tell, the only difference between Anonymous, Lulzsec, and the FBI is that the FBI act by executive fiat. I don't support Internet vigilanteism, but I also don't support the concept of the FBI as an untouchable force who are no longer held accountable by the public…

> "At this point, I'm not sure which one I find more scary." There will always be scofflaws and pranksters. Indeed for our way of life to be assured, they must be able to exist. The ever-growing reach of the military-espionage-industrial complex is the only real threat.

First time I've seen that phrase with the 'espionage' added in there. Makes perfect sense though, espionage should have been part of that term decades ago

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#205

Post by potatolicious » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 10:19 PM UTC

jxcole wrote: post #125

Why does Anonymous focus so much on attacking the US government (and related rich democratic countries) when it could instead be focused on fighting the governments that are actually oppressive? Nothing the US has ever done, even at it's most oppressive, could ever compare to what North Korea does to it's own citizen's on a regular basis. I would probably be much more sympathetic towards their cause if they focused m…

"Why are you working at that soup kitchen?"

"Excuse me?"

"Well, it just seems that there are millions of starving people in Africa. Isn't that a bigger hunger problem to solve than the 2000 homeless people in the city?"

"... Are you serious?"

"Why don't all of you guys in this kitchen just go to Africa, set up soup kitchens there on a bigger scale, and feed millions instead of hundreds? Surely that'd be a better use of your time!"

"... Get out."

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#206

Post by smallblacksun » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 10:22 PM UTC

hankry wrote: post #188

ddw wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even if Lulzsec gets some of your data, they aren't going to create a huge database of it. The FBI on the other hand...

why wouldn't they?

Because only governments and big corporations do bad things, of course.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#207

Post by smallblacksun » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 10:25 PM UTC

rauljara wrote: post #83

I think there is room for illegal activities in the name of a free and open society. If this is truly the author's goal, however, they need to stop associating with LulzSec. There was nothing noble about 9/10's of the crap lulzsec did, and the somewhat decent stuff they did was undercut by the whole "for the lulz" philosophy. If you really are fighting for freedom, you need to be better than DDS'ing game servers, bec…

So you support the News of the World phone hacking? The only difference between them and anonymous/wikileaks/etc. is that NOTW is using it to support politics you don't like, while the others are using it to support politics you do.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#208

Post by jonmc12 » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 10:34 PM UTC

Shenglong wrote: post #90

This is absolutely ridiculous. I don't agree with a lot of the things that various government organizations are allegedly doing either. However, I also understand that I probably don't have all the facts. I also know that even if I had all the facts, I would probably not commit much time to analyzing all of them, in order to make a sound decision on the best course of action. Why don't other people realize this? We l…

This is a dangerous way to look at the world.

For starters, people in positions of power have a long history of acting in their own best interests and not the interest of the greater good. Some decisions about our government and country have both arbitrary criteria, and arbitrary outcomes. Historically, politicians will use this ambiguity to bias towards their own interests - including resisting changes that will bring more transparency to the benefits/harms of their "sound decision on the best course of action".

Second, some domains need specialists, some need generalists. To even suggest that we should rely on specialists in all situations is simply a flawed understanding of how knowledge evolves. In particular to running a country, we happen to be at a cycle where the information we use to make very important decisions for the purpose of our national interests is evolving very rapidly. Most likely success means finding new ways to understand information vs applying proven, specialized techniques.

We are not talking about people making mistakes, we are talking about a system that has consistently produced leaders that are incapable of acting in the best interests of their constituency. Its a broken system, and Anonymous / Lulz are making history right now.. they are forcing information to the surface. Their tactics are in fact a solution - setting a precedence to our leaders that their actions will be judged in the future much more openly than they were judged in the past.

And I'll tell you, a world where the individuals in our government system must be openly accountable for the decisions they make, and how those decisions affect others is a better world for all of us. The only other path has been retold countless times in history books, and its so much worse than any disclosure of factual data.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#209

Post by enjalot » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 10:44 PM UTC

Shenglong wrote: post #104

enjalot wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You forgot to mention that we should leave voting to the politicians :P

I know that's meant to be satirical, but it kind of derides the examples. Economists vote mostly based on their economic views, stem-cell researchers on stem-cell related views, and low-income families on social security. I just mean, leave specialized tasks to the specialists.

I interpreted your point to be that we should leave government to the government specialists, i.e. politicians.

Re: Anonymous & Lulz Security Statement to the FBI

#210

Post by StrawberryFrog » Thu, Jul 21, 2011, 10:47 PM UTC

jxcole wrote: post #125

Why does Anonymous focus so much on attacking the US government (and related rich democratic countries) when it could instead be focused on fighting the governments that are actually oppressive? Nothing the US has ever done, even at it's most oppressive, could ever compare to what North Korea does to it's own citizen's on a regular basis. I would probably be much more sympathetic towards their cause if they focused m…

> Why does Anonymous focus so much on attacking the US government when it could instead be focused on fighting the governments that are actually oppressive?

Because the US government is much easier to reform. It pays at least some lip service to freedom.