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Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

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Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#201

Post by MattGaiser »

tablespoon wrote: post #154
MattGaiser wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In this case it self regulated because the market rate for drivers was too high. The drivers are evidently employed in some way that makes their market rate that high.

> In this case it self regulated because the market rate for drivers was too high. It what way has it self regulated? Amazon could setup a new set of captive small businesses to exploit and nothing will change. It's not like they were actually dependent on these people in any way. It seems like they're running a model that's at least partially about exploiting their vendors' hope and ignorance, and there's a sucker b…

But the small business cannot hire, so even if they do find a couple more suckers, it won't matter as they will immediately be losing money on a per unit of delivery basis.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#202

Post by skybrian »

amelius wrote: post #66
axaxs wrote: post #56

I don't get Amazon's play here. Just charge me more money for items, and pay your people well. I'd rather have a happy safe driver than a miserable one at the end of his or her rope, all so I could save a dollar. Reminds me of Papa John complaining giving his employees healthcare would make prices go up 14 cents per pizza. Seriously? Who cares about 14 cents when ordering a pizza... Amazon's entire value to me is fas…

> I don't get Amazon's play here. Shareholders, probably.

Not as a matter of hard power because the outside shareholders are usually pretty docile. Management has the power.

Shareholder ideology can be used to justify all sorts of things, though.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#203

Post by somethingwitty1 »

jellicle wrote: post #25
whatok wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Comparing packages to deliveries is apples to oranges. I don't disagree that these jobs are rough but 120 deliveries with an average of 3-4 packages per delivery paints a similar picture.

Who said there's an average of 3-4 packages per delivery?

No one. They were using an example to demonstrate why you can't compare these numbers. There is missing data.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#204

Post by [deleted] »

alisonkisk wrote: post #134
softwaredoug wrote: post #119

> "The companies were losing money and employees trying to satisfy Amazon and their constant abusive changes,” Tom Rask, an attorney for Last Mile and Triton, told Motherboard. "You have to hire numerous drivers who may or may not be working. One day Amazon dictates that you have thirty routes, the next day forty, then the day after twenty. You’re supposed to have enough drivers for back-up while Amazon is lowering p…

This is basically how shift work in hospitality and service jobs works, and it's terrible. Some people claim it's done intentionally to prevent workers from working other jobs where they might get tired or escape the first job.

[deleted]

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#205

Post by LeifCarrotson »

paulpauper wrote: post #156

2 delivery companies quit.that leaves 1998 others. This is lower than an employee attrition rate. It is only newsworthy because it involves Amazon and they gave a reason which confirms a popular media narrative

Similar to articles that read "Americans believe X" and natter on about all the panic that we should feel over this problem, then cite their source as a Twitter thread. Yes, someone said that, amd someone retweeted it. But it's disingenous - or, to put it bluntly, lying - to categorize "Amazon delivery companies" or "Americans" from a couple statistical outliers. Get to at least 5% before you call it a trend.

Edit: Unless you want to write an article citing the parent comment and myself titled "Internet Commenters Demand Less Clickbait and Better Statistics in Headlines"

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#206

Post by dehrmann »

CobsterLock wrote: post #9
nonfamous wrote: post #3

> [contract delivery companies] have to adhere to a strict set of rules from Amazon around hiring, pay, delivery times and routes, and more. The only one of these that Amazon has any right to dictate is delivery times (and what they will pay for that delivery). The fact that Amazon has direct control over the contractor’s worker’s pay, and even the ability to fire those workers, is very shocking to me. Remember, this…

Are these the same drivers that wear Amazon vests, drive Amazon cars and can only deliver for Amazon? Seems like Amazon is doing some legal loophole with "3rd party" companies to get around actually employing these drivers and giving them the full time benefits they are entitled to by law I'm so tired of this dumb gig economy that isn't long term sustainable.

This isn't a new loophole, though. Major US airlines do the same thing with regional carriers. If you live in the US, you've probably been on a SkyWest flight and not known it. The big difference is SkyWest is regional (they're not on the East Coast), and they contract with America, Delta, and United, so they actually have some leverage.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#207

Post by marcosdumay »

thatsamonad wrote: post #94
axaxs wrote: post #56

I don't get Amazon's play here. Just charge me more money for items, and pay your people well. I'd rather have a happy safe driver than a miserable one at the end of his or her rope, all so I could save a dollar. Reminds me of Papa John complaining giving his employees healthcare would make prices go up 14 cents per pizza. Seriously? Who cares about 14 cents when ordering a pizza... Amazon's entire value to me is fas…

These statements seem contradictory to me: > I'd rather have a happy safe driver than a miserable one at the end of his or her rope > Amazon’s entire value to me is fast delivery My understanding is that the pace/quantity of deliveries is what makes the drivers miserable so if you want the drivers to be happier and not stressed then relaxing the delivery standards would have the most impact. Do we really need most of…

The GP is saying they should hire more drivers, and reduce the workload on each one. And that the cost to doing that doesn't really bother him.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#208

Post by antihero »

paulpauper wrote: post #171
softwaredoug wrote: post #119

> "The companies were losing money and employees trying to satisfy Amazon and their constant abusive changes,” Tom Rask, an attorney for Last Mile and Triton, told Motherboard. "You have to hire numerous drivers who may or may not be working. One day Amazon dictates that you have thirty routes, the next day forty, then the day after twenty. You’re supposed to have enough drivers for back-up while Amazon is lowering p…

Freelancing just sounds awful for this reason. Yeah some ppl can make a lot but still seems like an awful way to make money if you are an american. Consulting is somewhat different

Freelancing is great if you've built up a network of professional contacts who appreciate your work and will both contract you and recommend you to their network when someone is looking for work done. You typically get paid a far higher hourly rate than if you are working full-time - my contract day rate amounts to nearly double my full-time day rate.

And presuming you keep delivering, impressing people, and gaining more skill and experience, it just goes up and up and up.

Like anything else, it is much harder if you are on the bottom rung.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#209

Post by slownews45 »

snapcaster wrote: post #150
whoknowswhat11 wrote: post #10

HN really needs to look at these types of headlines - They are written without qualification. 0.001 of Amazon delivery companies shut down 2 out if 2000 delivery companies shut down. Are both probably more accurate.

I don't think this is necessarily true. The headline phrasing and your phrasing both have ability to shift perception. Percentage based phrasing like yours isn't apolitical or free of rhetoric it's just a different framing

At least stick the word "Some amazon deliver companies revolt". It's by no mean all companies.

Re: Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

#210

Post by AmVess »

jeremyjh wrote: post #177
cartoonworld wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have direct experience interacting with the Amazon delivery partner fleet operations. I don't disagree, I would like to add a few details to the discussion. There's one important nuance missing in all this and that is that the Fleet contractors, those who own and operate the ProMaster and MB step-vans, they are "independent operators" who are sole suppliers, totally beholden to Amazon. I suspect it is extremely lim…

To me it looks like Amazon is running these businesses without the risk or accountability that comes from that. It’s just another shell game to evade regulation akin to Microsoft’s permanent contractors or gig economy workers

That's essentially it. They outsource the loss of delivering packages and make the company pay for it on top of it.

I remember when this program came out and it was an exceedingly bad deal on the surface. I was surprised to see anyone buy into it.

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