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Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

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Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#201

Post by mastazi »

uniqueid wrote: post #184
nimbleal wrote: post #126

I may be a few years behind on terminology (?) but surely sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender? No one cares what pronouns an athlete uses, how they dress, what roles and behaviours society traditionally assigns/expects of them and how they respond to those traditions. They care entirely about biological advantages and disadvantages. So the division is based on — again unsure of the term…

sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender Dividing by sex is a substitute for dividing by the things that really matter: height, weight, strength, bone density, etc. If sports grouped competitors by a combination of those attributes, it would solve a lot of issues, including debate over transgender athletes.

Most combat sports have weight classes so what you are suggesting is not completely unheard of.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#202

Post by CJefferson »

devit wrote: post #42
Theory5 wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why wouldn't people support transgendered people able to be the gender they wish and being able to do so in all possible aspects? Be they transwomen wanting to play female sports, or transmen wanting to play male sports (which you oddly leave out of your question).

Because the fittest people with an expressed SRY gene (aka "biologically male") are generally 10-15% better at sports than those without it (aka "biologically female") so if you allow SRY-expressing MtF transgender people to compete in the female category against non-SRY cisgender female people (rather than only letting them competing in the male category), and there are enough of them at top levels, no cisgender wom…

That's a strong claim, and so far women's sports aren't being dominated by trans people. Can you provide any evidence?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#203

Post by nimbleal »

uniqueid wrote: post #184
nimbleal wrote: post #126

I may be a few years behind on terminology (?) but surely sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender? No one cares what pronouns an athlete uses, how they dress, what roles and behaviours society traditionally assigns/expects of them and how they respond to those traditions. They care entirely about biological advantages and disadvantages. So the division is based on — again unsure of the term…

sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender Dividing by sex is a substitute for dividing by the things that really matter: height, weight, strength, bone density, etc. If sports grouped competitors by a combination of those attributes, it would solve a lot of issues, including debate over transgender athletes.

Hmmmm. At that point are you not simply beginning to divide by ability? Basketball for short people? Weightlifting for weak people? It would seem to both go against the spirit of sport and be impossible to implement in practice (for e.g how many different ways do you cut it?)

Perhaps the more fundamental question — once again leaning on apparently somewhat flimsy terminology — would be: is biological sex something worthy of celebration and note? Half of our species is born a certain way, whatever we call it. Is that grouping to be given certain opportunities to demonstrate their talents that would not be afforded them on a level playing field?

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#204

Post by clearcarbon »

Transgender inclusion in sport has brought to the front that sports are inherently unfair. Wherever you draw the lines there is someone thats going to be just the other side of that line.

Trans people have been allowed compete in sports for the last 18 years, however this is the first trans athlete to make it to the olympics, this seems to suggest that trans people competing in sports has not pushed IFAB people out of sports to any significant degree, especially not at the highest levels of competition.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#205

Post by nerdponx »

jeremybms wrote: post #154

One possibility that could potentially work for certain sports, like weightlifting, where the competition is solely in terms of individual records, would be to do away with the existing division by weight and male/female and instead introduce a handicap model based on measured characteristics. For example, all players might be required to have blood testosterone levels recorded at regular intervals starting from a yo…

Makes sense for the Olympics or Worlds, but what about amateur competitions? High school wrestling leagues can't exactly start doing this stuff.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#206

Post by yoz-y »

At some point we need to stop and realise that some problems just don’t have a solution that is going to please everybody. In this case there is an option to annihilate hopes and dreams of either transgender athletes, or women. Both options suck, but the second one affects disproportionately more people.

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#207

Post by jl6 »

mssundaram wrote: post #183
vore wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Ideology"? Is it unfathomable to you that people would reasonably be able to feel that they have a different biological gender to how they feel in their mind? And that people cavalierly dismissing their acceptance in society is somehow not harmful? If you want to talk respectfully about the implications of transgender athletes in sport, that's one thing. But what you are doing is not that. You're trying to dismiss t…

I've been curious if anyone has studied why there are more and more transgender people lately. I don't believe it is only due to awareness and perception - it seems to be occuring more and more frequently. Do other animals with similar levels of consciousness experience gender dysmorphia?

Some people have tried to study this phenomenon but have been shut down by accusations that such research would be transphobic.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2018/oct/16/academics-ar...

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#208

Post by crowf »

nimbleal wrote: post #203
uniqueid wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

sports has everything to do with sex and nothing to do with gender Dividing by sex is a substitute for dividing by the things that really matter: height, weight, strength, bone density, etc. If sports grouped competitors by a combination of those attributes, it would solve a lot of issues, including debate over transgender athletes.

Hmmmm. At that point are you not simply beginning to divide by ability? Basketball for short people? Weightlifting for weak people? It would seem to both go against the spirit of sport and be impossible to implement in practice (for e.g how many different ways do you cut it?) Perhaps the more fundamental question — once again leaning on apparently somewhat flimsy terminology — would be: is biological sex something wo…

Many sports have many categories. Boxers and wrestlers are separated based on weight

Re: Rival weightlifter speaks out on transgender Hubbard's Olympic place

#209

Post by dendrite9 »

trainsplanes wrote: post #51
asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #16

I feel like with this issue at some point we are bound to reach a breaking point. It's just a question of how far along things will go before we get there. People are more and more open about being transgender and there is more and more support for transgender individuals having the chance to live life as their correct gender. This is a great thing! However, it presents a huge problem for women's athletics, particula…

I won't risk saying this in real life or anywhere where my real identity is known, but I do wonder if the end result will be similar to what's common in many parts of Asia: a third/fourth gender. Instead of saying trans people are 100% identical to the gender they identify as, they'll be seen as something different. E.g., In Thailand there's the concept of kathoey (westerners refer to them as ladyboys). The Indian su…

I recently learned that the Navajo historically recognized more than two genders. This article says at least 6 but initially I heard 4. It's not something I've looked into much so I can't really say.

"In the Diné language, there are at least six genders: Asdzáán (woman), Hastiin (male), Náhleeh (feminine-man), Dilbaa (masculine-woman), Nádleeh Asdzaa (lesbian), ‘Nádleeh Hastii (gay man). All come from the Diné creation story, in which asdzáán and hastiin, a cisgender married couple, were not getting along and separated. When that happened, dilbaa and náhleeh emerged from hiding and were seen as a special group that could perform the duties of both women and men, stepping into the vacated partner roles. They were accepted by asdzáán and hastiin, who realized their survival depended on them."

https://www.hcn.org/issues/52.2/indigenous-affairs-why-are-d...

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