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Europe's Software Problem

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Re: Europe's Software Problem

#201

Post by pjc50 »

xeromal wrote: post #185
pjc50 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Europe is currently coasting along on the spoils of centuries of loot and plunder. A lavish, comfortable lifestyle was handed to the citizens of western europe Well, apart from the whole WW2 business. This is the trouble with generalisations across the continent, the closer you look the less well they fit. And if you look across a continent and back in time, the situation varies even further. Germany used to be "th…

WW2 could be taken as a benefit for Europe in the macro sense. * Influx of funding and loans from the US to rebuild * Able to rebuild legacy systems that were destroyed in the world (roads, buildings, new code standards, etc) * Reduced population means each individual is more valuable (See rising wages after plagues in the middle ages) * Increased interdependency to combat Russian and US pressures * The UN, NATO, etc

Some of which applies to SV as well. The US Navy:

- taught a huge number of people enough electronics to do field maintenance of radio and radar

- had a further more theoretical education for radar operators

- at the end of the war, sold off a huge amount of kit cheaply; some of this is still kicking around the ham community in California. See e.g. https://mightyohm.com/wiki/resources:surplus and the geographic distribution

The US picked up a lot of refugees (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Martians_(scientists) , Intel founder Andy Grove etc).

There's all sorts of odd little path dependencies. Shockley and Fairchild semiconductors were in California because Shockley himself wanted to live near his mother and managed to recruit people to move across the country.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#202

Post by egman_ekki »

_-david-_ wrote: post #191
Gravityloss wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It could well be the opposite. For example free education improves a software company's hiring prospects as there are lots of employee candidates available with good education. In some countries social mobility is a real thing. As a practical counter example, Sweden has massive taxation and something like most billionaires per capita and a very vibrant software and startup scene. One could actually do some kind of su…

Sweden does not have the highest billionaires per capita. Hong Kong, Monaco, Switzerland all have higher rates for example. There are several additional places as well. Is Borland actually a European company? It looks like it was started in California and has a headquarters in Texas. It is now owned by a company in the UK, but it doesnt really seem European to me.

From the wikipedia article:

> Borland Ltd. was founded in August 1981 by three Danish citizens, Niels Jensen, Ole Henriksen, and Mogens Glad, to develop [...] However, response to the company's products at the CP/M-82 show in San Francisco showed that a U.S. company would be needed to reach the American market. They met Philippe Kahn, who had just moved to Silicon Valley...

So yes, Borland is a US company, but founded by 3 Danish folks. That might indicate that Europe doesn't lack innovation or talent, but a large unified market with high purchasing power.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#203

Post by coryrc »

Gwypaas wrote: post #177
coryrc wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden has more billionaires per capita than the USA. Similar to the US, they also pay less in taxes than the middle class. I wonder if Sweden has higher funding than the rest of the continent?

Sweden has higher funding per capita, but does not answer why it became this way. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1071105/value-of-investm...

Wow, thanks for the link! Four times Germany and almost the same as the USA.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#204

Post by aapl88888 »

coryrc wrote: post #130
jpttsn wrote: post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What it lacks is freely flowing funding such that risky enterprises can be funded even if 1 out of ten or 1 out of hundred actually are successful Might this be a flip side of regulations that combat economic inequality? If so, the two should not be addressed as separate issues. But frontpage HN posts tend to be "Applauding Europes' long vacations and progressive taxes" and "Bemoaning Europe's lack of VCs with fuck…

Sweden has more billionaires per capita than the USA. Similar to the US, they also pay less in taxes than the middle class. I wonder if Sweden has higher funding than the rest of the continent?

Almost all of them are old people outside of tech

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Swedish_billionaires_b...

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#205

Post by mmarq »

bandris wrote: post #63
Mary-Jane wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All the FAANGs are American companies, and they've all been pushing the boundaries. What do you feel America has lost in this respect?

The US and California in particular lost it's appeal. 20 years ago it was the dream destination for many. Now, even some Indians steer away. I don't know a single European who would want to live in the US. Not even from Eastern Europe. The go-to place is London, Berlin, Stockholm, Amsterdam, etc. FAANGS were started 1-2 decades ago. In past 5 years the trend changed. Ask PG. He will never move back to the US. And no,…

Instead I would argue that if the Americans opened their borders, a huge fraction of European tech workers/professionals will relocate there. I'd say that, as middle-class persons, they wouldn't subject themselves to the torture of getting a visa, which may also partially explain the rise of Berlin as a tech hub after Brexit.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#206

Post by aapl88888 »

coryrc wrote: post #203
Gwypaas wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sweden has higher funding per capita, but does not answer why it became this way. https://www.statista.com/statistics/1071105/value-of-investm...

Wow, thanks for the link! Four times Germany and almost the same as the USA.

You are using a false equivalence. Almost none of Swedish billionaires are in high tech.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#207

Post by xeromal »

pjc50 wrote: post #201
xeromal wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

WW2 could be taken as a benefit for Europe in the macro sense. * Influx of funding and loans from the US to rebuild * Able to rebuild legacy systems that were destroyed in the world (roads, buildings, new code standards, etc) * Reduced population means each individual is more valuable (See rising wages after plagues in the middle ages) * Increased interdependency to combat Russian and US pressures * The UN, NATO, etc

Some of which applies to SV as well. The US Navy: - taught a huge number of people enough electronics to do field maintenance of radio and radar - had a further more theoretical education for radar operators - at the end of the war, sold off a huge amount of kit cheaply; some of this is still kicking around the ham community in California. See e.g. https://mightyohm.com/wiki/resources:surplus and the geographic distr…

I find it very interesting how it all played out to make society today. Thanks for sharing these articles. I'm gonna check them out

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#208

Post by hocuspocus »

dharmaturtle wrote: post #35

PG has a related essay: Why Startups Condense in America http://www.paulgraham.com/america.html He actually has several essays on how to try to create a Silicon Valley in other geographic areas, but this seemed the most relevant. tldr: 1. The US Allows Immigration. 2. The US Is a Rich Country. 3. The US Is Not (Yet) a Police State. 4. American Universities Are Better. 5. You Can Fire People in America. 6. In America…

The first point didn't age so well. All developed countries have an easier immigration path for skilled workers than the US. Yes, even Japan.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#209

Post by pjc50 »

arcturus17 wrote: post #195
pjc50 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Europe is currently coasting along on the spoils of centuries of loot and plunder. A lavish, comfortable lifestyle was handed to the citizens of western europe Well, apart from the whole WW2 business. This is the trouble with generalisations across the continent, the closer you look the less well they fit. And if you look across a continent and back in time, the situation varies even further. Germany used to be "th…

Spain was razed to the ground during the Civil War (1936-1939) and people were literally eating cats and rats off the streets so I doubt that any of our current wealth is inherited from our former Imperial glory, aside from maybe some intangible, indirect and minuscule effects such as “historic capital”. To your point, same goes for Germany indeed… Have you guys seen the pics of what cities like Berlin, Nuremberg or…

Perhaps not Europe as a whole, but definitely the concentrated structure of land ownership, e.g. https://www.businessinsider.com/why-hugh-grosvenor-duke-of-w...

To some extent I think the social structures produced by inherited wealth are anti-conduicive to innovation. Where's the innovation in the US? Most would say it's concentrated out west, in a state that didn't exist until 1850. The social structures of concentrated wealth in the South from the slavery era make it less innovative. And the northeast centers on money-making-money and property ownership.

The real sweet spot, of course, is cashing out: finding how to get the old money and oil money to invest in your new innovation. The success of WeWork, for example.

Re: Europe's Software Problem

#210

Post by egman_ekki »

xeromal wrote: post #185
pjc50 wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Europe is currently coasting along on the spoils of centuries of loot and plunder. A lavish, comfortable lifestyle was handed to the citizens of western europe Well, apart from the whole WW2 business. This is the trouble with generalisations across the continent, the closer you look the less well they fit. And if you look across a continent and back in time, the situation varies even further. Germany used to be "th…

WW2 could be taken as a benefit for Europe in the macro sense. * Influx of funding and loans from the US to rebuild * Able to rebuild legacy systems that were destroyed in the world (roads, buildings, new code standards, etc) * Reduced population means each individual is more valuable (See rising wages after plagues in the middle ages) * Increased interdependency to combat Russian and US pressures * The UN, NATO, etc

I wonder if we should perhaps bomb some nations every once in a while for their benefit... /s
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