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Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

nytimes.com

201–210 of 550 posts

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The press freedom index places Burkina Faso, a country that bans journalists from visiting displacement camps, higher than the US, so I'm a little skeptical of its findings

Can journalists visit Guantanamo?

As far as I can tell, yes. There are rules regarding access that were written in 2010. The most recent info I found on the matter (during my admittedly limited internet searches) are in relation to new regulations that were introduced and then removed in August, 2019:

- https://pressfreedomtracker.us/all-incidents/amid-backlash-d...

- https://theintercept.com/2019/08/30/guantanamo-bay-press-res...

If you're aware of more recent information, do share. As I said, this is just the results from a cursory search and may not reflect the current situation.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citation / explanation needed. ADL's stated mission is "To stop the defamation of the Jewish people, and to secure justice and fair treatment to all..." It seems like the ADL has legitimate work it can be doing, unless you think Jews and all people are treated fairly. I don't think you're saying that, and I do think you're saying it's not doing the work that it could be doing. Could you say more about that? "Of the 1…

ADL has engaged in lobbying for policies that unconstitutionally conflict with the first ammendment. Whatever their legitimate grievances, that's not an acceptable response.

I think you’re referring to BDS and anti-BDS laws. Is that right? Are you referring to something else in addition to those?

Do anti-BDS laws mean the ADL has an identity crisis? Or they should be having one? They seem related to their mission.

I’m not a lawyer, and I’m not an expert in the first amendment, its case law, or anti-BDS laws. You might be right that some or all anti-BDS laws violate some first amendment right in some way. I don’t know which analogy is the right one to apply to anti-BDS laws, something different legal scholars and lawyers argue about. It seems like reasonable people can disagree about what is constitutional and what is not here. Maybe the supreme court will rule on it specifically, and even then it might still be the case that reasonable people can disagree.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#203
post #22

I like this idea: https://twitter.com/kittypurrzog/status/1401610476237197312 The ACLU should split into two groups: ACLU Sr, which fights for free speech rights, and ACLU Jr, which fights against them (Yes, I saw this when PG retweeted it.)

I wonder how large the generational divide is there. Are younger lawyers less likely to take cases of clients they deem detestable? The article alludes to some internal rift but the topic may deserve an article all on its own.

Robert Conquest’s Three Laws of Politics are enough to explain the downfall of ACLU:

1. Everyone is conservative about what they know best

2. Any organization not explicitly right-wing sooner or later becomes left-wing

3. The simplest way to explain the behavior of any bureaucratic organization is to assume that it is controlled by a cabal of its enemies

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#204

As much as I like a good political debate I wish HN restrict itself to more tech related articles rather than this. Sometimes tech has some political aspecst or we discuss the politics of certain tech companies, but this has nothing to do with either tech or tech companies, so why is it even here?

Correct me if I'm incorrect but the idea of the hn forum is to discuss and share things which spark curiosity or something along those lines. I believe this article and conversation is incredibly curiosity inspiring. Also if hn was to deviate from that aim I think hn would really cease to be what it is.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#205
post #191

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t see how the message is anti-white. The claim seems to be that “free speech” has become something of a dog whistle. It’s certainly true where I am, and as a supporter of free speech I dislike the association!

If 'free speech' is a 'dog whistle' what would be a viable alternative to get the same ideal, without falling afoul of a shift in the 'dog whistle' goalpost?

Everything is a dog whistle if you're insecure enough. Recall the "It's ok to be white" posters.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#206

Free speech is table stakes for a free society. Those claiming otherwise are playing with fire.

Let's substitute into your sentence, a statement I feel is equivalent (please let me know if you think it's an unfair characterization):

"Any government regulation of speech or published material is destructive to free society."

Hopefully you immediately think of exceptions: illicit pornography, fire in a theater, ingredient labels/active ingredient listings, directly false marketing, misrepresenting contracts, direct physical threats/"fighting words," convincing someone to commit suicide, intellectual property related speech, advertisements to kids, speech in the military, speech under NDA's, security clearance related information, publicly accusing someone of a crime they didn't commit. Maybe you might think speech is different whether it's from a citizen or non citizen. Maybe it's different from a corporation and a person. Maybe it's different if speech is done in good faith (because a person honestly believes their words) or bad faith (because someone wants to manipulate somebody). Maybe the mode of speech matters, whether it's internet, radio, spoken word, telephone, or otherwise.

Referring to free speech in indirect terms creates a problem, because it denies the grey. Free speech arguments are all about determining the correct gradient of grey for society. Being able to identify and understand grey area is a strong signal of being informed. The grey area is why people who are knowledgeable are unsure and people who know nothing are confident. One sees complexities, the other is blind to them.

Every person on the planet being able to publish a message that can be read by every human (twitter) is something the human race has never had to face before. Facebook can choose to promote hateful speech with algorithms and incite hatred through doing so, gaining them engagement (addiction) in the process. Is that healthy for society? Is fox news healthy? On the other side is CNN (fake news?) healthy? Should China/Russia be able to purchase American airtime? Should American celebrities and businesses be protected from having their speech coerced by foreign powers?

Reasonable people can come to different conclusions on what it means for speech to be "free", what counts as speech, what context around the speech matters, and what entities should get "free speech" protection.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#207
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvoting is a form of free speech too. You have the freedom to say what you like, but there’s no obligation on anyone else to listen to it or like it, or publish and distribute it.

However, in any community where the down vote is used for mere disagreement, there is no room for dissenting opinions. An open discourse requires that people are willing to listen to those whom they disagree with. Down voting liberally is counter to that principle.

[deleted]

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#208
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Downvoting is a form of free speech too. You have the freedom to say what you like, but there’s no obligation on anyone else to listen to it or like it, or publish and distribute it.

However, in any community where the down vote is used for mere disagreement, there is no room for dissenting opinions. An open discourse requires that people are willing to listen to those whom they disagree with. Down voting liberally is counter to that principle.

I disagree. Downvoting for disagreement is a way of saving time in the discussion from reading lower value comments. To much low value content can mask more thoughtful discussion.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless I am confusing cases Breonna Taylor did not shoot at the police or even have a gun.

Taylor's boyfriend was defending his home against intruders, in line with his second amendment rights. Rather than backing off, the police used this as justification to escalate their attack. "No knock" warrants are fundamentally incompatible with an armed citizenry, and are therefore a 2A issue.

I understand that, but Taylor was not accused of anything related to guns. I am not sure why the NRA should get involved with anything related to her. The charges against her boyfriend were dropped so they couldn't defend him if they wanted to. I do think if gun related charges are brought against him again the NRA should defend him.

Re: Once a bastion of free speech, the ACLU faces an identity crisis

#210
post #44

I wish I'd taken a photo of the "survey" they sent me the other day. I've managed to get junk mail from both sides of the political spectrum now, which has been interesting (the conservative groups have had me on their mailing list forever, and I think a subscription to Harpers got me on the liberal groups). Unfortunately, other than the issues involved, I can't really tell a big difference between fundraising styles…

That’s because the primary purpose of such a poll is not to gather data, but to influence opinion. It’s called a push poll: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Push_poll
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