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Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

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Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#201
post #51

I work for another company that is going to do a partial return to office. I will be looking at options for companies that offer full in person office (or 90% in person office) after things settle down. I have worked full remote for a total of 5 years of my career, and I believe working in the office is a competitive advantage. * Overhearing hallway conversations (and joining them) helps spawn invocation. * I often d…

> I often do/did paired programming, and over-the-shoulder code reviews. These are easier in person

I work 100% remote and recently have been mentoring a recent CS graduate and doing pair programming with him. Let me describe how we do it and then I'd like to hear how you think things are better in person.

We start a Slack voice call, these work reliably. Some coworkers told me the longest Slack call they have maintained was over 12 hours long, with people coming and going throughout the conversation.

After starting the voice call, I share my screen. I show him what I'm working on in IntelliJ and we talk about it. Then I use a new IntelliJ feature called code-with-me and send him a link, he clicks on it and and he is then able to edit any file in my IDE on his IDE on his computer. I'm still sharing my screen, but he might not look at it, after all, he can see and edit any part of the code on his own computer now. He can share his screen at any time if needed with 2 clicks.

I direct the conversation, but look for tasks I can pair off. There's a service I need an interface too, so I ask him to work on it. He starts reading documentation about it on his own computer with multiple large monitors. He then begins writing an interface to the service. I flip tabs over to the source file he's working on and can see where his cursor is and what he's typing in real time. I give advice, I just type out what I mean instead of trying to describe what I want him to do in the code with verbal words. This is all like Google Docs, we can bring in even more people and have 5 or 6 cursors all over the project just working independently. Everyone at their own desk where they're fully productive.

This is a real story. He finished the interface to the service, and it worked well. I still don't know all the details of what he wrote, I never had to be distracted by it, but his code has worked so far, so my trust was well placed. The whole experience was so smooth. We could sync up and talk about a single bit of code and then return to our own work, the context switching took literally seconds. I'd just say, "hey, look at this", he'd click a tab in his editor and then see what I was doing, we chat about it for 30 seconds, then he makes a 2nd click and is back to his own work. We pair programmed like this for about 3 hours. Sometimes we'd go 15 minutes without saying anything, but we were working towards the same goal, and interruptions to talk about the goal weren't distracting. I could never endure watching over someones shoulder for 3 hours.

We were maintaining a call / audio channel the entire time, I even muttered some things under my breath (just thinking out loud) and he was able to hear. I think it's the only time I've been happy and productive with pair programming.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm obviously an outlier, but I live an 8 minute (peaceful) bike ride from work. I hate commuting, so I optimized for that for this job, and working from home last year was absolutely a net negative for me. Distracting kids, poor work-life balance, more expensive (AC, food, water, etc). I think the lesson here is, some companies can be remote-first, some companies can be in-person, and different employees will prefer…

I don't understand how so many people in this thread are saying they spend more on food while working from home. How is this possible? Does it vary by country? In Australia at least it is orders of magnitude less expensive to prepare food at home purchased from a supermarket than it is to buy food whilst out an about. Or are these people working for companies that provide food or something. I just don't get it.

My work pays for my food.

Also, I’m busy working, so I don’t actually have time to cook my lunch, so it’s either eating something frozen, which is unhealthy and gets old, or get delivery, so that $30 for a meal.

Also, my commute is a fifteen minute walk, because I absolutely optimized for not having to drive anywhere. The only benefit to wfh was seeing my kid more often, but that had its own caveats because it is hugely distracting. So, it’s cheaper and more productive for me to be in the office.

The only reason I’d want to work from home was if I wasn’t actually working, and my bet is many people see it as exactly that.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#203

"Cook wrapped up the memo by saying that he's looking forward to seeing employee faces. "I know I'm not alone in missing the hum of activity, the energy, creativity and collaboration of our in-person meetings and the sense of community we've all built," he wrote." CEO's all spout the same nonsense. The majority of people work because they need to earn money. They're not working to make a new 'family' or change the wo…

> The majority of people just want to earn some money and do it as easily as possible. That's true, and I don't blame anyone for that. However, I don't think one should expect to enjoy all of the benefits of an extremely high performing company (i.e., RSUs of great value, high pay, prestige, etc.) if they approach work in this way. It sounds very entitled to say "I'm just here for the paycheck" but expect all of the…

I philosophically agree with your comment, but honestly my income over the past 20 years hasn't really followed what you're saying in any meaningful way. I've had places I didn't work very hard that paid me a ton, and places I worked like crazy and made little. In my experience, the factor that matters far more than anything else is the prevailing economy and, really, the stock market.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm obviously an outlier, but I live an 8 minute (peaceful) bike ride from work. I hate commuting, so I optimized for that for this job, and working from home last year was absolutely a net negative for me. Distracting kids, poor work-life balance, more expensive (AC, food, water, etc). I think the lesson here is, some companies can be remote-first, some companies can be in-person, and different employees will prefer…

>> I live an 8 minute (peaceful) bike ride from work Well that's where you live now. Average worker changes jobs 12 times in a career. Is your plan to just move 12 times (and pay the costs associated with that)? Or work at the same job for much longer (and pay the costs associated with that)? One of the benefits of living in a large metro area is the amount of job opportunities, but it you put an 8 minute circle arou…

If you're going to bring averages into it, the average 18 year old has ~9 moves remaining in their life, meaning that they'd only move an extra 3 times.

https://www.census.gov/topics/population/migration/guidance/...

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Or are these people working for companies that provide food or something. It's this. Companies started offering food to keep their employees in the office longer. That people here are saying they prefer eating at work due to the cost shows it worked.

It isn't just that they prefer eating at work due to cost. Work provides prepared food. Preparing food means getting ingredients, tracking expiration and making and storing leftover food. In some ways this is wonderful, in others it is a huge time and energy sink compared to eating at work. Spoiled food wastes more than money and it happens easily. You can buy prepared food for home via takeout or frozen but those ha…

For me, going back to the office means going back to eating microwaved leftovers, or spending $15-20 a day on lunch out.

Totaling up gas and mileage and food and tolls, commuting to the office is going to cost me on the order of $500-1000 a month that I'm not spending now. Just the extra time that I'd need to spend getting ready to go to work and then commuting works out to an entire extra work week of time over the course of a month.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#206
post #71

"Cook wrapped up the memo by saying that he's looking forward to seeing employee faces. "I know I'm not alone in missing the hum of activity, the energy, creativity and collaboration of our in-person meetings and the sense of community we've all built," he wrote." CEO's all spout the same nonsense. The majority of people work because they need to earn money. They're not working to make a new 'family' or change the wo…

> CEO's all spout the same nonsense. The majority of people work because they need to earn money. And Cook knows it. When he writes the above, it's just performative. The actual message is "come, or be fired".

This is going to backfire hard as soon as one disgruntled employee decides that, when faced with the choice of being forced to come into an office they can't stand being in or losing their source of income and ending up homeless, takes the third option of bringing an AR-15 to work, shooting up their workplace, and turning the gun on themselves.

Desperate people do desperate things, and mark my words, we will see a massive uptick in workplace mass shootings as a result of reckless CEOs forcing people back into the office.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people would not flag comments like this. I don't agree with the commenter at all , but killing their comment doesn't help us have a conversation about their concerns. It's critical that we resolve these conflicts and not do what we (as a society) have been doing for years, where we treat people like an "other" and shun them because we don't want to deal with them.

They wouldn't call it religion if they wanted a conversation.

I was among the first who wore a mask in my area (before it was mandatory) and I recognize the benefit of masks as one of the interventions with the best cost-benefit tradeoff.

Nevertheless, I 100% agree with that post, and think "religion" is the most accurate word to describe the situation, especially in the US.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#208
post #51

I work for another company that is going to do a partial return to office. I will be looking at options for companies that offer full in person office (or 90% in person office) after things settle down. I have worked full remote for a total of 5 years of my career, and I believe working in the office is a competitive advantage. * Overhearing hallway conversations (and joining them) helps spawn invocation. * I often d…

I think this will ultimately lead to a bifurcation of workplaces into remote-first and office-first (a divide which already existed, but was probably 5% vs 95% pre-pandemic), and this diversity will be a good thing.

Some company cultures are better adapted to remote working, while others stand to benefit more from in-person, and the same thing can be said for individuals. People who thrive more in one than the other will gravitate toward companies whose remote/office emphasis matches their preference, and recruiters will start considering it, too.

Re: Apple asks staff to return to office 3 days a week starting in early September

#210
still more people will probably be working from home on a permanent basis; he says 'Most employees will be asked to return' not 'all employees...' Also google is saying that '20 percent are expected to work from home permanently' https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/6/22422518/google-hybrid-wor... (trying to read between the lines)

A different question is if those working from home will have a greater chance of being shoved out with the next review cycle, but that's another story.

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