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Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

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Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#201

Post by GuB-42 »

bryanlarsen wrote: post #151
GuB-42 wrote: post #97

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hydrogen has a great energy density, that's why it is used in rockets. It may have similar range as battery electric cars but it can scale better. It can be refueled in minutes, like gas cars. And the economy is based on using "waste" renewable energy. The problem is that solar panels and wind turbines don't produce energy when we need it the most (see: duck curve). The idea is to store that energy as hydrogen and us…

> Hydrogen has a great energy density, that's why it is used in rockets. Per kg, but its energy density per litre is very poor. Every modern rocket uses RP1 (kerosene) or Methane (natural gas) for their first stages now. > It can be refueled in minutes, like gas cars. If your hydrogen station has 10,000 PSI hydrogen available. A typical station can fill 3 cars per hour quickly. More than that and you have to wait for…

> You can also store "waste" renewable energy in EV batteries

Yes you can, but the time when solar energy is the most abundant is in the the middle of the day, typically when people are away from home and not charging their cars.

Hydrogen can be stored for years in huge tanks so it is really "on demand". Unlike batteries, tank benefit from the square cube law and therefore makes large scale storage cheaper.

And BTW, personally, I am not convinced by hydrogen cars, but it doesn't look completely stupid either.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#202

Post by _ph_ »

konschubert wrote: post #199
_ph_ wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beyond the missing expensive infrastructure, the big problem is energy efficiency. Moving forward, we have to switch every energy production to renewables. But for the same amount of electric energy produced, an electric car gets about 3x the mileage than producing "green" hydrogen and powering fuel cell cars with it. Hydrogen means at least 3x the electricity cost and for many years to come, we are going to struggle…

The bottleneck is not kwh of electricity produced, but storage. Hydrogen cards do well on that bottleneck.

No, the do worse than electric cars in that respect. The hydrogen production facilities are very expensive, so they have to run 24/7 at the same load. This is exactly what mixed badly with the varying supply of renewables. With electric cars, you just plug them in at home/at work and they charge whenever there is an oversupply of electricity. Offering special remote controlled charging outlets is going to be a game changer for the grid.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#203

Post by trutannus »

gnull wrote: post #109
trutannus wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same question from me also. Also, hydrogen is highly explosive, so how can that be safely used in cars without detonating a la Hindenburg whenever there's a collision?

It is explosive only when mixed with enough oxygen, much like gasoline or propane. Hindenburg did not explode, it burned (quite fast, I should add). As I understand, If you make a hole in hydrogen tank and set it on fire, it will just burn (don't try to do this at home).

> If you make a hole in hydrogen tank and set it on fire

Right, the issue is though that in a collision you won't always just have a nice small controlled hole and burn.

I've worked around Hydrogen before, and storage was always a tricky issue. I remember the regulations stating something like needing to store the tank with either Argon or Nitrogen beside it. Not really something I'd want in the back, or any part for that matter, of my car.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#204

Post by _ph_ »

JPKab wrote: post #182
_ph_ wrote: post #176

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Beyond the missing expensive infrastructure, the big problem is energy efficiency. Moving forward, we have to switch every energy production to renewables. But for the same amount of electric energy produced, an electric car gets about 3x the mileage than producing "green" hydrogen and powering fuel cell cars with it. Hydrogen means at least 3x the electricity cost and for many years to come, we are going to struggle…

The key to a hydrogen economy will rely on creation of hydrogen in locations with extremely abundant electricity like Iceland. The next step is shipping it like it's LNG. Not a small order.

Yes, those locations will play a huge role in securing the global energy supply. However, the hydrogen will be desperately needed in the industry (e.g. steel production) and for supporting the electric grid in times of both low wind and solar. No good reason to waste it around the year driving cars.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#205

Post by vardump »

new_realist wrote: post #128
SigmundA wrote: post #117

This is at 66.9 km/h (40 mph) in order to greatly increase its range due to lower drag compared to normal highway speeds. As a comparison a Tesla Model 3 got 975km (606 miles) at 40 km/h (25 mph) [1]. I can't seem to find any range tests at a similar speed as the Nexo. I found an EPA dyno test for the Model 3 at 77 km/h (48mph) for 708 km (440 miles). The Nexo and Model 3 have similar dimension and weight and price,…

The Nexo is much less aerodynamic than the Model 3. One is an SUV/CUV, the other is a low sedan which looks like wet poop. The Nexo has more frontal area and a higher CD. And the Tesla is known for rigging its EPA tests for higher, but illusory, numbers.

> And the Tesla is known for rigging its EPA tests for higher, but illusory, numbers.

By that you must mean Tesla bothers to do the full suite of EPA tests instead of accepting a somewhat penalizing multiplier, like how other manufacturers do?

There's no rigging whatsoever and the same option is available for other manufacturers as well. If they bother to do the longer and more demanding test cycle, that is.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#206

Post by rcMgD2BwE72F »

asciimov wrote: post #198

I've always hoped hydrogen would have taken off. Since you can convert gas engines to run off of hydrogen it would be easier to move the market to hydrogen than electric. Allowing us to build out the infrastructure first, then transition vehicles over to fuel cell.

By the time you can build the infra, we'll have replaced all the ICE cars to EV. And the cost to build the infra far exceeds the cost to replace all ICE to EV and install electric chargers everywhere, too.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#207

Post by HPsquared »

simcop2387 wrote: post #148
throwaway0a5e wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're not wrong but "can you make hose X with material Y" or "can I get valve body P with spring rate Q" is a hell of a lot better than "we need custom hoses" or "is this casting good to 10kpsi?".

The big problem with hydrogen is just how small it is. It likes to leach through stuff hold just about everything else. You very well might need custom hoses, custom seals, and custom materials for the castings just to safely store it at 10kpsi. It'll leak through solid steel containers that will otherwise hold helium fine.

Even worse than simply leaking, hydrogen can diffuse into the crystal structure of metals and cause havoc with the material properties. It's definitely not as friendly as hydraulic oil.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#208

Post by _ph_ »

timthorn wrote: post #19
MattRix wrote: post #16

What is the appeal of a hydrogen car vs an eletric car? The range appears to be similar, but being able to charge at home is so much more convenient.

Hydrogen cars usually are electric cars. The main advantage to the owner is being able to fill the tank in minutes, and to society as a whole is being able to manage the H2 generation process to align with supply and demand on the grid.

Hydrogen production is not well suited to be run depending on the power supply in the grid due to the high prices of the production facilities. If you keep electric cars plugged in, they are far better suited to absorb high supply situations at a much higher efficiency.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#209

Post by xiphias2 »

SigmundA wrote: post #117

This is at 66.9 km/h (40 mph) in order to greatly increase its range due to lower drag compared to normal highway speeds. As a comparison a Tesla Model 3 got 975km (606 miles) at 40 km/h (25 mph) [1]. I can't seem to find any range tests at a similar speed as the Nexo. I found an EPA dyno test for the Model 3 at 77 km/h (48mph) for 708 km (440 miles). The Nexo and Model 3 have similar dimension and weight and price,…

Hydrogen makes much more sense for container ships, where electric batteries can't be made practical, but hydrogen storage can be scaled easily.

Re: Hyundai Nexo sets new world record 887.5 km travelled on single tank of hydrogen

#210

Post by asciimov »

MattRix wrote: post #16

What is the appeal of a hydrogen car vs an eletric car? The range appears to be similar, but being able to charge at home is so much more convenient.

For me the biggest appeal is you could convert a petrol powered car to run off of hydrogen. While they are not as efficient as fuel cell, running a regular engine off of hydrogen would allow us to create demand for fueling stations faster than waiting on fuel cell cars to gradually enter the market.
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