Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016) • Hacker News Board

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#201

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Sun, May 09, 2021, 10:13 PM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #186

Digit-Al wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a black English man who enjoys a bit of rock and metal myself I have wondered this myself. I have some theories, which I fully admit are half baked and quite possibly incorrect. However, I think that a lot of the culture around rock and metal is off-putting to a lot of black people. If you look at something like black metal and it's sub-genres, a lot of the culture and imagery revolves around satanism and European…

There are underground metal scenes in the Muslim world, in spite of disapproval from officialdom that the music is anti-religious. Those in Lebanon and Iran have been well covered, for example. Often its afficionados speak of the supposed universality of metal, and certainly don’t see it as bound to European paganism, so that alone doesn’t seem to explain its failure to connect with those of Afro and Caribbean herita…

I so disagree. You can totally dance to metal. First, there's headbanging and moshing which are absolutely kinds of dance, as is air-guitar playing (a kind of... interpretive dance; I guess?).

These may not be what most people think of when they think of dance, but most people also don't think of growling when they think of singing, and yet growling is a form of singing - and in fact one that is connected to traditional forms of singing like the Kargyraa technique in Tuvan throat singing [1] or the Sufi zikar [2].

And if I had a penny for every time I've been told "that's not music" for any metal band I liked to listen to, I'd be a penny gazzilionaire.

I digress. You also can dance-dance to metal. Why not? It's got rythm to spare. If we don't see anyone dancing-dancing to it it's only because metalheads are ... to be kind, self-conscious.

It's just a matter of what we're used to I think.

__________

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuvan_throat_singing#Kargyraa

That's when they start to growl as they whistle. Mental.

[2] Particularly Kemal Zikar; for example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8GZnVKcSzMM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NRnjV013f5I

Bonus Sufi zikar mosh pit (with genuine respect):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G5goISKPSH8

And with headbanging:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW34HM7RCgo

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#202

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Sun, May 09, 2021, 10:35 PM UTC

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #161

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why you say that I am criticising black people. I wondered why black kids don't, as a rule (some do) make rock anymore. How is that criticising anyone? I think you and other posters here are jumping the gun and making associations between my comment and other comments you may have heard or read elsewhere and in a different context. If that is the case, please consider again the HN guidelines about…

I'll speak to this bluntly: some of your comments come across as lecturing black musicians on what they should be doing, in particular how they should shape their response to the racism they experience. Your comments also make clear that you do not experience the specific sort of racism black folk experience. This is a very poor combination, one that many people fall into, where they think they're being supportive bu…

Can you please show me where I'm "lecturing"?

I think you too are jumping the gun and misreading in my comments meanings I never intended. If you don't know what I intended, you can ask.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#203

Post by randompwd » Sun, May 09, 2021, 10:39 PM UTC

skystarman wrote: post #172

dang wrote: post #108

I wouldn't have thought the article was very good, and the title is neither an accurate representation of what Dylan said, nor really what the article is about. But this thread is surprisingly pretty good! As a gloss on what Dylan is saying about race and the music business, this clip where David Bowie turns the tables on an MTV interviewer in 1983 is worth watching, in a high-tension sort of way. He's pretty impress…

Yeah, this is a really great video, thanks for sharing "woke" Bowie. As you say, he ages well, except for his molesting young girls in the '70s. There's at least two 15 year olds that admit having sex with him. I'm a Bowie fan but it's difficult to separate those unacceptable acts from the great things he did.

> his molesting young girls in the '70s

Where is this evidence he molested girls?

> There's at least two 15 year olds that admit having sex with him.

That in and of itself isn't molestation. Love the hyperbole though.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#204

Post by jasonwatkinspdx » Sun, May 09, 2021, 11:02 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #202

jasonwatkinspdx wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll speak to this bluntly: some of your comments come across as lecturing black musicians on what they should be doing, in particular how they should shape their response to the racism they experience. Your comments also make clear that you do not experience the specific sort of racism black folk experience. This is a very poor combination, one that many people fall into, where they think they're being supportive bu…

Can you please show me where I'm "lecturing"? I think you too are jumping the gun and misreading in my comments meanings I never intended. If you don't know what I intended, you can ask.

I was clear that I thought you weren't being straight up malicious, but falling into a common honest misunderstanding.

The reason I say listen more is because your responses make clear you have a somewhat superficial understanding of this topic area. You're expressing views on how other people should respond to racism you haven't experienced, and your specific advice on this point is not just unhelpful, but counterproductive. Or said more simply: try to refrain from telling black people what the best response to racism is.

Whether or not you intended that is somewhat besides the point. You have to own your speech as you spoke it.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#205

Post by Mediterraneo10 » Sun, May 09, 2021, 11:07 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #201

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are underground metal scenes in the Muslim world, in spite of disapproval from officialdom that the music is anti-religious. Those in Lebanon and Iran have been well covered, for example. Often its afficionados speak of the supposed universality of metal, and certainly don’t see it as bound to European paganism, so that alone doesn’t seem to explain its failure to connect with those of Afro and Caribbean herita…

I so disagree. You can totally dance to metal. First, there's headbanging and moshing which are absolutely kinds of dance, as is air-guitar playing (a kind of... interpretive dance; I guess?). These may not be what most people think of when they think of dance, but most people also don't think of growling when they think of singing, and yet growling is a form of singing - and in fact one that is connected to traditio…

Obviously, when I said "you can't dance to metal", I was referring to dancing as traditionally pursued by those populations. They probably don't want to switch from the dancing they are used to to headbanging and moshing.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#206

Post by dang » Mon, May 10, 2021, 12:34 AM UTC

randompwd wrote: post #203

skystarman wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, this is a really great video, thanks for sharing "woke" Bowie. As you say, he ages well, except for his molesting young girls in the '70s. There's at least two 15 year olds that admit having sex with him. I'm a Bowie fan but it's difficult to separate those unacceptable acts from the great things he did.

> his molesting young girls in the '70s Where is this evidence he molested girls? > There's at least two 15 year olds that admit having sex with him. That in and of itself isn't molestation. Love the hyperbole though.

Please don't take HN threads further into flamewar hell. Of all the things we don't need, definitional disputes about molestation are really up there.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#207

Post by buttercraft » Mon, May 10, 2021, 12:44 AM UTC

vagrantJin wrote: post #198

Applejinx wrote: post #167

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bach. Bach ain't jamming (though in a sense he was capable of just that) but it's just as much Bach on the page as it is in the concert hall. It's not the only kind of music, but it's most definitely music, and would still be music even if nobody ever heard it, so long as the patterns and organizations inside it were preserved (I think it's less music if it was viewed as only an abstract pattern of ink marks on paper…

> and would still be music even if nobody ever heard it I vehemently disagree. that's like writing when you don't know how to read. Possible, but meaningless. I can't read sheet music. The condition to understanding Bach's music on your own is to first understand sheet music. So to make his music you must read and understand his language. Is that music? It's subject to whoever interprets it. If we go nearly extinct w…

Why do you think you can tell other people what is meaningful to them? Your statements are incredibly arrogant. And empty.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#208

Post by harry8 » Mon, May 10, 2021, 2:16 AM UTC

hackflip wrote: post #179

ndesaulniers wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I finally got around to listening to Led Zepplin I the other day...a couple of times I thought to myself "man, this sounds like the blues."

Half their songs are covers of older blues songs.

Plagiarized.

They really did claim to have written "Killing Floor" with a stupid title of "The Lemon Song." Howlin' Wolf had been to london and recorded with Clapton. Hendrix had played a scorching version of it on BBC Radio One. No way they could have missed just that one. Then all the Willie Dixon. It's embarrassing how often Page/Plant claimed to have written classic blues and robbed working folk artists. Lowered my opinion of them significantly to see it so if you want to hero-worship them maybe skip compilations like this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tiiY4ciKFQA

And that's just some of it. When they stopped doing it the quality of their output fell off a cliff.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#209

Post by Digit-Al » Mon, May 10, 2021, 6:43 AM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #201

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are underground metal scenes in the Muslim world, in spite of disapproval from officialdom that the music is anti-religious. Those in Lebanon and Iran have been well covered, for example. Often its afficionados speak of the supposed universality of metal, and certainly don’t see it as bound to European paganism, so that alone doesn’t seem to explain its failure to connect with those of Afro and Caribbean herita…

I so disagree. You can totally dance to metal. First, there's headbanging and moshing which are absolutely kinds of dance, as is air-guitar playing (a kind of... interpretive dance; I guess?). These may not be what most people think of when they think of dance, but most people also don't think of growling when they think of singing, and yet growling is a form of singing - and in fact one that is connected to traditio…

> I so disagree. You can totally dance to metal. First, there's headbanging and moshing which are absolutely kinds of dance, as is air-guitar playing (a kind of... interpretive dance; I guess?).

I completely agree with you here. I used to dance to metal bands frequently when we were allowed to go out and dance.

Re: Bob Dylan lays down what killed rock n roll (2016)

#210

Post by Digit-Al » Mon, May 10, 2021, 6:57 AM UTC

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #186

Digit-Al wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a black English man who enjoys a bit of rock and metal myself I have wondered this myself. I have some theories, which I fully admit are half baked and quite possibly incorrect. However, I think that a lot of the culture around rock and metal is off-putting to a lot of black people. If you look at something like black metal and it's sub-genres, a lot of the culture and imagery revolves around satanism and European…

There are underground metal scenes in the Muslim world, in spite of disapproval from officialdom that the music is anti-religious. Those in Lebanon and Iran have been well covered, for example. Often its afficionados speak of the supposed universality of metal, and certainly don’t see it as bound to European paganism, so that alone doesn’t seem to explain its failure to connect with those of Afro and Caribbean herita…

> There are underground metal scenes in the Muslim world, in spite of disapproval from officialdom that the music is anti-religious. Those in Lebanon and Iran have been well covered, for example. Often its afficionados speak of the supposed universality of metal, and certainly don’t see it as bound to European paganism, so that alone doesn’t seem to explain its failure to connect with those of Afro and Caribbean heritage.

That is an interesting point. I am struggling to find a good way of explaining my thinking on this but if you listen to rap music you will see here and there lip service paid to their Christian faith (liner notes thanking God, lyrics mentioning God in some form) even as they talk about "slapping bitches" and shooting rivals. So even in their rebellion they don't openly rebel against their faith.

I suspect that it could be down to differences in what people are rebelling against. If you are a kid living a comfortable middle class white existence then if you want to rebel then you will rebel against the stifling conformity. Black kids, especially in America, live under a very different reality and tend to spend their energy rebelling against being harassed by the police and against the system that keeps their communities in poverty rather than against religious faith and the like.