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The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

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Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#201

Post by stjohnswarts »

TheBlight wrote: post #111
oblib wrote: post #100

This is a tough issue for a government. We do have crazies out there and we do need to investigate potential dangerous groups and individuals and reel them in before they do something crazy. On my FB feed I have seen friends and friends of friends call for armed revolt many times over the past few years. Most all of them are blowing steam and many are in their 60s or older and couldn't run a block in gym shorts, and…

FWIW, the protestors at the capitol didn't kill anyone.

They probably would have if they got their hands on people and they also beat several cops which could have potentially killed them. They were definitely out to hurt people and take over Congress.

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#202

Post by wasmitnetzen »

cycomanic wrote: post #193
fastball wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which ones and how big are they?

Pretty much every western country. Sweden, France, Germany to give three examples.

Germany has a federal police force, mostly tasked with border protection and transport security, and 16 state-level police forces.

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#203

Post by MagnumOpus »

cycomanic wrote: post #192
volkl48 wrote: post #151

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can either have separate agencies or you can have a pile of specialized sub-agencies within some umbrella organization.....but working out how to align funding with who it's serving is going to be harder with the umbrella organization in many cases. Specialization is a thing within policing as much as it is within the rest of life. It's not like the same person who knows how to investigate a murder scene is equal…

Funny thing is, it works in pretty much any other western country. Now speaking about Germany there's essentially two police arms. The state police and the federal police. I don't see why every government department needs a police. Yes there are specific crimes that you might want to investigate, but you don't have to have police for that. Look for example to IRS they can have investigators, but they don't need polic…

I hear you, though, even in Germany there are other separate police forces under different ministries, like the Zoll (customs and immigration), the Feldjaeger (military police), and Justizvollzug (correctional officers and prisoner transport) - and each one of them has SWAT-like teams in addition to the forces of state and federal police.

There are also a lot of other public officers with limited police powers and different reporting, just like in the US - officers of the courts, public health inspectors, the Ordnungsamt (public order office), forest rangers, officers of the bureau of standards etc.

Until a few decades ago, it was even more splintered, and the border police and railway police were only integrated into the federal police in the 1990s if I am not mistaken...

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#204

Post by concordDance »

stjohnswarts wrote: post #201
TheBlight wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, the protestors at the capitol didn't kill anyone.

They probably would have if they got their hands on people and they also beat several cops which could have potentially killed them. They were definitely out to hurt people and take over Congress.

> They probably would have if they got their hands on people

You cannot know this. You should be suspicious of thoughts that say your Outgroup is worse than what you have concrete evidence for. Confirmation bias is a hell of a thing.

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#205

Post by concordDance »

slaymaker1907 wrote: post #142
TheBlight wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, the protestors at the capitol didn't kill anyone.

This is a dumb argument because they were at least trying to IMPLEMENT A COUP. It seems pretty clear to me that they would have assaulted and killed representatives if they would have gotten the chance which they very nearly did. Also, don't call them "protestors". The nicest term I can think of for them would be rebels since they were in open rebellion to the United States. Some people at the capital that day were p…

I think it's worth bearing in mind a few things:

1. Coups don't have to be violent.

2. The hypothetical coupers would not have believed it to be a coup, merely reinstating the rightful president.

3. Those invading the capitol were likely mostly just doing because they could rather than because they had a concrete plan on what they'd do if they found Pence and the representatives. I expect the vast vast majority would have done nothing more than shout slogans.

4. In general, when it comes to ones Outgroups there's a strong tendency to assume the worst at every opportunity. You might want to work to counteract that tendency (if only so you can better understand said Outgroup).

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#206

Post by sunshineforever »

fastball wrote: post #195
cycomanic wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty much every western country. Sweden, France, Germany to give three examples.

Right, so countries the size of a single US state.

The US divides it's police by town, not by state.

And France and Germany are each twice as populous as the most populous US state.

So you're not really correct.

There's absolutely no reason why having a single bureaucracy wouldn't work well.

It actually seems like it would be much easier to have a single bureaucracy.

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#207

Post by sokoloff »

cryptoquick wrote: post #136
bscphil wrote: post #131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> if there were actual crimes committed by immigrants or gun owners, the crimes themselves should be dealt with Maybe I'm missing your point, but isn't that exactly what the cops in question are supposedly doing? "Immigration cops" investigate illegal immigration. The ATF investigates the unlawful use or sale of firearms and drug trafficking. All of these things are crimes (regardless of whether they should be). So h…

I guess I'm asking a question of crime priority, and whether some crimes are more likely to be punished because a disproportionate amount of policing is put in place towards that sort of crime. If the same resources that were dedicated to the numerous policing agencies in the US were given to a smaller number of more generalized agencies, those agencies would be allowed to prioritize where their time and resources ar…

I would rather the public collectively decide (assuming an effective representative government) how much we should prioritize X vs Y rather than just giving a giant pile of money and saying to the cops “do with this money whatever you think is best”.

These people have a monopoly on legally sanctioned violence. If you think there is any merit in anti-trust for businesses or that big tech should be broken up, I hope you’d think it even more strongly for policing.

We don’t have a perfectly functional representative process, but we sure do have a way to get influence over the system. Imagine how much resources could have been devoted to the war on drugs if the police could have stopped all other policing. That would be terrible IMO.

It would also be bad (though perhaps less so) if the Dept of Education had no resources to examine its operations for fraud and waste.

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#208

Post by ClumsyPilot »

fastball wrote: post #181
girvo wrote: post #175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of countries do just that though, without the crazy specific separation and specialisation that America does.

Which ones and how big are they?

Russia

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#209

Post by vinay427 »

cycomanic wrote: post #193
fastball wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which ones and how big are they?

Pretty much every western country. Sweden, France, Germany to give three examples.

There are only a handful of western countries that use this approach. As counterexamples, Switzerland, the UK, Spain, and many other countries tend to have local municipal police departments, and Germany has state/Bundesland-level police departments as well as the random auxiliary departments that a sibling comment mentioned.

France and Sweden are both far more centralized and less federalized. There's a reason more federal countries such as Switzerland or Germany have more decentralized policing. I think it would be beyond unacceptable to most Americans, myself included, for the US to have a single police department with its bureaucracy in Washington. If anything, I think far too power in the US is already centralized in DC which contributes to bad governance due to the vastly increased distance (in many senses) between politicians and their constituents.

I would be fine with 50+6 state/district/territorial police departments, which is sort of the Germany or Canada (with Ontario and Quebec) approach.

Re: The USPS is running a 'covert' program to monitor Americans' social media posts

#210

Post by ClumsyPilot »

slaymaker1907 wrote: post #142
TheBlight wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, the protestors at the capitol didn't kill anyone.

This is a dumb argument because they were at least trying to IMPLEMENT A COUP. It seems pretty clear to me that they would have assaulted and killed representatives if they would have gotten the chance which they very nearly did. Also, don't call them "protestors". The nicest term I can think of for them would be rebels since they were in open rebellion to the United States. Some people at the capital that day were p…

Back in the day, my grandparents told me people get killed at rock concerts if they get caught in the moshpit.

This reads at a similar level of credebility. Compate the footage from the capitol with footage of Ukrain protests back in the day.

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