Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

protocol.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

201–210 of 238 posts

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#201

Post by 908B64B197 »

thethethethe wrote: post #195
908B64B197 wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and don't allow you to move up like they used to Is there even a position to move up to? > These terminations are arbitrary, unnecessary, and legitimely harmful to people's lives, so no I don't think it's fair or humane. That's something they should bring to Modis, their employers. Also, do they operate any other data centers outside of Google ones?

> Is there even a position to move up to? Yes, it is common for data center workers and tech support to move up to sysadmin or something similar sometimes even SRE. They are given a 6 month trial period on a team to train and then go through the external interview process afterwards > That's something they should bring to Modis, their employers The whole point here is that they effectively work for Google, and Modis…

> Yes, it is common for data center workers and tech support to move up to sysadmin or something similar sometimes even SRE.

It sounds like they isolated tasks that are performed frequently enough and need no specialization and decided to outsource these. Maybe as a stopgap before they get completely automated.

I don't think these were ever intended as entry level to something else.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#202

Post by matz1 »

lowercased wrote: post #154
syshum wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So when you go to find a Plumber, Auto Mechanic, Roofer, etc you look at the amount of money you can "afford" than pay exactly that? so If a plumber says he can fix my sink for $150 but I cna "afford" to pay $500 I should pay $500?

Are you also actively working with other people/companies who might hire those same people to put caps on what they might get paid, or indeed to negotiate hiring them at all? Google/apple/etc have enormous sway in some areas re: hiring/referrals/etc, and engaged in 'antipoaching' stuff that prevented free movement of labor (imo). The plumber/mechanic analogies fall down when you look at the size and actions of google…

>Are you also actively working with other people/companies who might hire those same people to put caps on what they might get paid, or indeed to negotiate hiring them at all? Google/apple/etc have enormous sway in some areas re: hiring/referrals/etc, and engaged in 'antipoaching' stuff that prevented free movement of labor (imo).

If I have the ability/resource to do that and if the total cost is less then of course.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#203

Post by syshum »

mstipetic wrote: post #198
syshum wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Response to this common statement we have 2 video responses You Can Always Leave ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fasTSY-dB-s ) Why Libertarianism Is So Dangerous ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NbNFJK1ZpVg )

This was painful to watch.

I am sorry that logic and reason is painful to you

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#204

Post by [deleted] »

lhorie wrote: post #174
plank_time wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are low value workers. They don’t get job security. That’s the reality of it. They are replaceable with people with no experience. They have to understand that. There’s no job security to waiters either or Uber drivers. Just because they work in a datacenter doesn’t mean they deserve more money for a low value job. If they want a full time job, they need to elevate themselves. Educate yourself, get a degree, fin…

> If they want a full time job, they need to elevate themselves This suggestion only makes sense until it doesn't. Suppose everyone actually took that advice. Then you'd have an entire population of overqualified people who cannot find jobs that are appropriate to their skill level and who still have to take crappy jobs. Paradoxically, maybe even you are one of them. Then what? Now consider that this upleveling actua…

[deleted]

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#205

Post by pydry »

yanderekko wrote: post #84
toomuchtodo wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like that you're blunt about it, makes it much easier to reason why more regulation around labor is required. "BigCorp will avoid as much labor costs as possible. To improve labor conditions and compensation, regulation must require it."

"To ensure that people only have good jobs, we must ensure that people who cannot get good jobs are unemployable."

>we must ensure that people who cannot get good jobs are unemployable

How are "we" doing that precisely?

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#206

Post by taurath »

dannyw wrote: post #48
taurath wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The right thing for the company to do would be to hire people as employees, but it appears that worker protections are too strong for them to want to financially. Universal healthcare/dental/paid leave would allow for companies who’s employees currently are the only receivers of these “benefits” to not require companies to hold onto people so long. Worker protections are supposed to be so that catastrophic job loss i…

Some people, like the grandparent or me, don't want to be employees.

I also wouldn't want to be an employee. I work best in short monthly bursts with legitimate breaks in between. I'm working on setting it up so I can do that as an experienced consultant/freelancer.

The job market is pretty different though for full time employees - one part of which is the insane contractor usage at big companies with money. Microsoft is still like 50% contractors, and in this area if you have "contractor for a bigco" attached to your resume I'd estimate you'll be talked to by far fewer recruiters, and then offered less lucrative work. Also as others have stated you'll have up to 60% of what the company pays for your work taken by the contracting agency especially if they do "management" for their workforce.

Then benefits are a real thing. I have some healthcare needs which require me to have consistent insurance that isn't going to force me to other providers just because I switch. Retirement investing without a 401k is basically all cash since the roth and regular IRA limit is so low. I'm still figuring out how that will work, whether I should incorporate as a consultant so I can provide a 401k to myself, or just not bother with it and just invest.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#207

Post by taurath »

newacct583 wrote: post #104
dcolkitt wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Employee-status may come with certain benefits, but it also comes with many drawbacks and burdens for the employee. For me, and probably many on this board, the biggest risk is "works-for-hire". Under US law, contractors have strong legal protections of their own intellectual protection. Whereas it's much easier for a W-2 employer to claim IP made in personal time. I don't really care about healthcare of unemployment…

> Employee-status may come with certain benefits, but it also comes with many drawbacks and burdens for the employee. Not to the employees in question. Clearly the frame and interview content of the linked article is that these employees WANT to be permanent employees. But they're not allowed to be because their employer wants the flexibility to terminate them at any time. The fact that the two year contract exists i…

I'll second that. I know many people stuck in the Microsoft forever-contractor hell (QA, Project Management, etc) and all of them want to be employees. They've worked there longer than most current employees in their area. They get 40-50% of what Microsoft pays for them taken by their consulting agency who has a contract with MS legal, so the only way to get hired for their positions is through that company.

Its a huge financial burden for them to have to take these 6 months off. The worst part is since they're all "contract ended" so regularly, Microsoft can just say they're not reopening for many req's and many people who were waiting their 6 months to be up so they could go back are suddenly having to look for a totally different job.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#208

Post by taurath »

Retric wrote: post #54
dannyw wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some people, like the grandparent or me, don't want to be employees.

The difference between a contractor and an employee isn’t arbitrarily. Basically, if you’re using company equipment, following the companies schedule, and don’t have a clear task with a clear finishing condition then you’re an employee. Finding someone to fill in for a secretary on maternity leave is fine, but open ended contacts on their equipment and schedule without some specific task is just opening them up to lo…

By that metric almost every contractor I've ever worked with should be an employee. Which I sort of agree with. But you can come up with "well defined project's" when its really "staff-aug".

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#209

Post by cloudfifty »

syshum wrote: post #203
mstipetic wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This was painful to watch.

I am sorry that logic and reason is painful to you

"logic and reason" sounds very cultish, like another way of writing The Truth.

Re: Forced unemployment and second-class status: Google's data center contractors

#210

Post by kevincox »

frankbreetz wrote: post #114
KKKKkkkk1 wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a very clear explanation in the article about the reason for this from an employment attorney. It's necessary so that Google can falsely classify these workers as non-employees. Under existing IRS guidelines, a company can't arbitrarily determine which workers are full employees and which are contractors. The business has to be able to prove when a worker meets certain key legal definitions about contract wor…

but why are they no allow to do the same job as a Google employee? Isn't starting as a contractor and being brought on as an fte common practice?

It depends a lot on the role. There are some roles where Contractor to FTE is fairly common and other roles where there is no equivalent FTE role and there is basically no chance of making the transition. (You would be basically applying fresh)
Post reply on HN