The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor • Hacker News Board

Re: The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor

#201

Post by adflux » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 9:36 AM UTC

nkmnz wrote: post #196

adflux wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Recommending Ritalin at all as a first response is dangerous as well...

If you would check again: it’s the third advice, not the first. You cannot get it without consulting a psychiatric MD, and at least in Germany, you have to commit to long term behavioral therapy as well. To make it as clear as possible: I would not recommend popping pills as a solution to the problems faced by the parent comment, but as a viable part of an integrated solution. Fear mongering doesn’t help anyone.

>From my own experience: go get therapy, meditation classes and Ritalin!

This is your first advice. Anyway, no need to get pedantic. Fact is you're carelessly suggesting the use of some pretty heavy and specific medicine, to someone you don't know, based on a few words of text he wrote on an anonymous internet forum.

Re: The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor

#202

Post by Tenoke » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 11:04 AM UTC

Pyramus wrote: post #179

Tenoke wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I specifically cited the actual results from the meta-analysis. In the conclusion and abstract they seem to mostly talk about 7-8 vs really short or longer sleep but when you look at the analysis there's barely any adverse effects at 6 (and indeed 6 is better than 8 and only a tiny bit worse than 7 on the most important thing from most studies - all-cause mortality). Yes, of course sleeping, say, 2 hours a night is t…

It seems to me you are picking one outcome, all-cause mortality (link to the study in question with nice dose-response curves [1]) but ignoring cardiovascular disease, type 2 diabetes, brain health, cognitive function, falls, accidents and injuries, and obesity? > My claims and quotations were about 6 hours, which is roughly what the people in OP slept, too. It's not clear how comparable the numbers are. The study fr…

I cited 4 outcomes, starting with both the most important one and the one with most studies and subjects behind it. There wasn't an outcome where the big negative effect is there at 6.

You are proving my point - even when presented with data against the 8 hours myth you try to twist it in every way to confirm your prior belief and wouldn't even consider if the data might just be correct.

Re: The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor

#203

Post by nkmnz » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 11:15 AM UTC

adflux wrote: post #201

nkmnz wrote: post #196

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you would check again: it’s the third advice, not the first. You cannot get it without consulting a psychiatric MD, and at least in Germany, you have to commit to long term behavioral therapy as well. To make it as clear as possible: I would not recommend popping pills as a solution to the problems faced by the parent comment, but as a viable part of an integrated solution. Fear mongering doesn’t help anyone.

>From my own experience: go get therapy, meditation classes and Ritalin! This is your first advice. Anyway, no need to get pedantic. Fact is you're carelessly suggesting the use of some pretty heavy and specific medicine, to someone you don't know, based on a few words of text he wrote on an anonymous internet forum.

What degree of heaviness is okay for drugs to be an okay recommendation on a quite specific problem? Did you ever recommend someone to get an Aspirin due to headache? Hope you didn’t - Aspirin is so dangerous, there’s no way we would allow it on the market according to today’s regulation. That said, the point here cannot be the danger of medication, but the public perception. Ritalin in adults is very safe if prescribed and monitored by a doctor and supervised by therapy. Taking into account the rate of comorbidities of untreated adhd symptoms (btw, as far as science goes, it’s a spectrum, not a classification, so you’re higher high or low in such treats), such as depression, implying Ritalin were dangerous even if taken as a part of a broader treatment regimen, is much more dangerous.

Re: The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor

#204

Post by jonplackett » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 11:57 AM UTC

andi999 wrote: post #158

jonplackett wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> increased sleep duration by 27 minutes per night by inducing more time in bed

From the article or abstract?

That was just in the abstract, what you see on the first page clicking the link.

Re: The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor

#205

Post by rorykoehler » Mon, Apr 12, 2021, 2:16 PM UTC

artem247 wrote: post #108

sofixa wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They probably make more than minimum wage workers at (fast food|restaurants|cleaning|etc) ? So even if they're relatively poor compared to skilled software engineers ( which is usually even more skewed because skilled ones often work for rich foreign companies that can afford a much better salary and still come out cheaper than engineers in their original country), they're still better off than minimum wage, who are…

Well not really. Actually minimum wage in Ukraine (where I live) is rather low, so businesses generally pay higher. Fast food workers are not on minimum wage. In terms of salary a school teacher would make less or the same as McDonalds worker. For example, McDonalds Ukraine pays an entry level worker -14 000 UAH ($500) monthly for 40 hours per week. School teacher makes minimum 5000 UAH ($180), +bonus(10-60%). Teache…

The study took place in India where doctors are well paid and McDonald's workers aren't.

Re: The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor

#206

Post by reducesuffering » Tue, Apr 13, 2021, 8:01 AM UTC

jacques_chester wrote: post #168

tyre wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, but you could say “ADHD medication”, much of which is very similar

Please stop repeating this anti-psychiatric talking point. 1. They are different chemicals. 2. They are administered by different means (inhalation is vastly more impactful than swallowing a tablet). 3. The doses for pharmaceuticals are much lower. By repeating this argument you create prejudice against those of us who live with ADHD and rely on medication to function normally.

> Please stop repeating this anti-psychiatric talking point.

That's rich. Here's a prominent psychiatrist's view (who btw, supports and does prescribe amphetamine adhd medication):

"There's a lot of confusion around the difference between amphetamine and methamphetamine. On the one hand you have anti-psychiatry activists who will say that using Adderall for ADHD is exactly like giving kids crystal meth; on the other you'll have people who say that obviously normal amphetamine is okay, but meth-amphetamine is a demonic substance that will hijack your brain and destroy your life. The truth is more complicated.

Methamphetamine crosses the blood-brain barrier more effectively than unsubstituted amphetamine, but I'm not sure how much that matters since people take different doses of both, and a high dose of unsubstituted will end up with more reaching the brain than a low dose of meth. It seems to inhibit the dopamine transporter more effectively, which might matter, but I'm not enough of a pharmacologist to know how much. Meth takes effect more quickly, which seems to increase addictiveness in a sort of behaviorist sense where the sooner a stimulus gets reinforced, the more rewarding it will feel.

I think there's been a little bit more research since then, but the general takeaway - that the science doesn't support the vast gulf between these two drugs in the popular imagination - still seems true."[0]

[0]https://astralcodexten.substack.com/p/know-your-amphetamines

Re: The Economic Consequences of Increasing Sleep Among the Urban Poor

#207

Post by andi999 » Wed, Apr 14, 2021, 2:52 PM UTC

jonplackett wrote: post #204

andi999 wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article or abstract?

That was just in the abstract, what you see on the first page clicking the link.

oh yes, thanks. I didnt parse the second half of the sentence. This totally doesnt make sense. I mean people seem to have a lot of interrupted sleep, wouldnt reduce the interruption increase sleep quality (and time)? (But probably due to small infants, so might be difficult to change that)