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MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

mitadmissions.org

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Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#201

Post by 908B64B197 »

ghaff wrote: post #200
pdonis wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a huge part of what I learned was exposure to many things--including non-STEM--and various activities outside of classwork I think these things can be found at any decent school. Or, for that matter, in many kinds of activities outside of any school.

Oh, I don't disagree. Certainly with respect to hiring, I'm usually interviewing fairly senior people in not-directly hands-on tech roles. I won't say I don't look at the schools but they don't really play a factor in my evaluation. And some of the best senior folks I know are from schools that no one's heard of.

That's my observation too.

At the senior level, folks have typically carved a path out for themselves. College is typically the oldest thing on their resume anyways.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#202

Post by ryandrake »

hintymad wrote: post #169
bigbillheck wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The union will also delay the teaching of geometry to grade 9 That's when I took it as a youth and nobody in either of the school districts I went to around those years took it any earlier. (For non-North Americans, 9th grade is 14-15yo). (And did you mean 'board' instead of 'union'?) EDIT: Some basic googling isn't coming up with anything about this, the closest I've found is SF high schools delaying algebra 1 unt…

Yeah, pushing kids may not always work out for kids. I used those examples to show it's possible for some kids to get advantages. That's also the reason I kept quantifying the examples with "if they are interested/talented" and etc. Maybe a reversed example is better: some kids could've stood out but didn't because they didn't have the edge of being in those camps/tutoring schools. I'm already seeing such trend: kids…

I get this but can’t bear to not participate!

The world is very quickly bifurcating into 1. a small professional elite and 2. poverty for the rest. The middle class is going away, and with it, jobs and dignity for B, C, and D students.

As a parent I feel if I don’t go into six figure debt paying for camps, tutors, sports, accelerated this, and advanced that, then there is some other parent doing this whose kid will take her spot on the train. Id be dooming her to a future of poverty.

College placement is a highly competitive, zero sum slugfest and for her sake I need to at least try.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#203

Post by currymj »

option wrote: post #85
currymj wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

it's hard to show intellectual merit using the SAT, because the test isn't hard enough so people just max out the score. the 25th percentile student at MIT got 790/800 for the math section. it definitely does make a difference for bright students who do unexpectedly well -- but it gets them into "merely" good schools not ultra-selective institutions like MIT.

sounds like the test is a good “necessary” (not sufficient) condition for admission

It's a common defense of the SAT that it gives a fair shot to smart students whose cultural background means they don't know how to play the admissions game.

But I think this is not true at hyper-selective institutions, because as you say a perfect SAT score is necessary but not sufficient.

A student who has been on the normal, non-advanced educational track, not playing the resume game, and suddenly gets a 1600 SAT, still typically won't have a shot at MIT.

What they will get is a bunch of great full scholarships to good, but not hyper-selective elite, universities.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#204

Post by 908B64B197 »

pdonis wrote: post #190
908B64B197 wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's more to a degree than just the coursework.

If you mean there is more to the credential than the coursework, of course that's true. But the only possible value in the credential is scarcity; if everyone gets it, it ceases to have any value as a credential. Or if you mean there's more to the experience of going to college than just the coursework, of course that's true as well. But if everyone went to MIT (or any other selective school), that experience would c…

> There is one other thing you could be referring to that the online materials can't give you, namely in person instruction and feedback

It's the labs and the projects. Especially for engineering degrees, a good part of learning comes from shipping projects. I think it's where "everyone doing MOOC" falls short.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#205

Post by ghaff »

908B64B197 wrote: post #201
ghaff wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Oh, I don't disagree. Certainly with respect to hiring, I'm usually interviewing fairly senior people in not-directly hands-on tech roles. I won't say I don't look at the schools but they don't really play a factor in my evaluation. And some of the best senior folks I know are from schools that no one's heard of.

That's my observation too. At the senior level, folks have typically carved a path out for themselves. College is typically the oldest thing on their resume anyways.

Yeah, without in any way to disclaim a rather privileged background, and without every really being outside of a engineering-adjacent space, I have had a very twisty turny path. And I don't think that's at all uncommon for a lot of people with a long career.

I think a lot of people here assume a fairly linear SWE progression beginning with a CS degree but that's not the norm for a lot of people who work in the computer industry in various roles even that didn't involve wholesale career shifts.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#206

Post by threatofrain »

pdonis wrote: post #193
threatofrain wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a tell of critical incompleteness — find Analysis 1, which is a must-have course for math and adjacent technical majors.

> find Analysis 1 https://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mathematics/18-100b-analysis-i-f...

Now everyone can look and make their own judgment call.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#207

Post by ghaff »

pmiller2 wrote: post #199
ghaff wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's fair. In extremely competitive situations, the slightest edge matter. Arguably test prep is less of an edge than spending a summer on some community project would be but even a relatively small point jump is an edge for someone on the bubble. And, of course, elite schools have become hyper-competitive. I have very few illusions that I would have the school choice I had when I went to college--especially given…

The real problem [edit: with scores] here is that scores are reported on a 200-800 scale. If they were reported in terms of standard deviation from the mean, then those 20-40 point differences wouldn't matter to admissions officers. As it is, a 30 point difference looks significant, even though it's only around 0.15 SD.

I'd hope that admissions officers are sophisticated enough to know that. Having said, there's some band in which you're basically flipping coins given overall criteria so you flip coins based on statistically insignificant numbers rather than complete random number generators.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#208

Post by porb121 »

beebmam wrote: post #65

I'd like to point out that there's an egalitarian approach to college admissions that I found interesting. Every single time I've brought it up with people, no matter their politics, they got angry about it, but I think it would be interesting to see it implemented and then compare the outcomes. A lottery system of admissions, with a guarantee of admission to at least some universities. It's described here: https://w…

I've heard of similar proposals for funding grants; have a first pass to make sure the grant proposals aren't total BS, then lottery among those that pass.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#209

Post by hn_throwaway_99 »

beebmam wrote: post #65

I'd like to point out that there's an egalitarian approach to college admissions that I found interesting. Every single time I've brought it up with people, no matter their politics, they got angry about it, but I think it would be interesting to see it implemented and then compare the outcomes. A lottery system of admissions, with a guarantee of admission to at least some universities. It's described here: https://w…

That assumes that the primary purpose of higher education is education, instead of maintaining social stratification under the auspices of meritocracy.

Re: MIT suspending SAT/ACT requirement for next application cycle

#210

Post by RhysU »

erosenbe0 wrote: post #168
scarmig wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The biggest part of any "elite" university is being surrounded by similarly high achieving people, to learn from and be motivated by. Attending any random state college gives you theoretical access to all the non-human resources (except labs) that the typical MIT undergraduate will access.

It's not theoretical, you simply need to search a bit more for same resources at a random state school. There are plenty of top quality professors at such schools. Not every professor can make things work for their family at Stanford or MIT. Maybe their partner has a modest income so to afford a house so they go work at Penn State or whatever.

(I don't understand the parent post other than it saying that top notch people can end up at state schools. )

We are...

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