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The internet didn’t kill counterculture – you just won’t find it on Instagram

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Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture – you just won’t find it on Instagram

#201

Post by pessimizer »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #147
bena wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call them a counterculture by any stretch of the imagination. Kpop is deliberately manufactured culture. The personalities and music are meticulously curated by corporations. "Underground Kpop" is practically an oxymoron like a "married bachelor" would be. And that's not to insult or knock it.

Listening to KPop in a country where it is not a major genre, might still be counterculture. Think back to the 1960s and 1970s: a lot of the American rock 'n' roll even then was curated, but those young people in the Soviet Union, say, or Morocco who started listening to it where definitely seen as a counterculture within their own country.

> Listening to KPop in a country where it is not a major genre, might still be counterculture.

Abstractly maybe, but in actuality an enormous amount of money and effort is spent to market K-Pop in the US by some of the largest media companies in the world.

Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture – you just won’t find it on Instagram

#202

Post by michaelpb »

tablespoon wrote: post #105
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> From well-compensated marketing teams, to hordes of self-interested proselytizers (see: bitcoin), to propaganda teams looking to influence public opinion, mainstream dark forest sites simply shift the balance of power from the platform itself to the most motivated and well-funded members of the platform This is making the perfect the enemy of the good. Also, voting systems take care of a lot of this, because naked…

>> From well-compensated marketing teams, to hordes of self-interested proselytizers (see: bitcoin), to propaganda teams looking to influence public opinion, mainstream dark forest sites simply shift the balance of power from the platform itself to the most motivated and well-funded members of the platform > Also, voting systems take care of a lot of this, because naked propaganda spam gets downvoted by the users. I…

Right, crowdsourced moderation works for badly done spam, poorly coded bots, etc. It does nothing for pseudo-science, "self-interested proselytizers" or PR teams. I think there's a mentality that if we just "crowdsource" something, somehow the work just goes away. It's a little like hand-waiving "the cloud" or "serverless" -- just because it's not your problem doesn't mean it disappears. It's still work that still needs to be done by somebody

On top of that, moderation of anything sufficiently popular isn't easy -- e.g., dealing with trolls or PR teams targeting a forum can get extremely complicated sussing out who is who and figuring out where to draw the line -- and like many things is inherently subjective, which means it's the last thing you'll want to hand-waive, but is instead integral to whatever is being built.

Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture – you just won’t find it on Instagram

#203

Post by giantrobot »

juststeve wrote: post #152
redisman wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Try explaining next that computing and gaming used to be subcultures/countercultures. I remember how Mortal Kombat and DOOM were going to cause the fall of civilization.

> DOOM Now we’re talking. Doom was a massive deal because of the violence (as you mentioned), but also because it moved entertainment revenue away from MSM and onto PC’s and the internet.

It didn't though. By the time of Doom's release video games (console and PC) were a multi-billion dollar industry. Only a quarter of households had PCs and none had Internet access. Even by 2000 only half of all households had a computer and only about 40% had Internet access.

Doom was not some watershed moment in entertainment. It was a trend setter, or at least a meme, in the industry but it didn't somehow change the trajectory of the game industry.

The PlayStation was vastly more influential on the industry on the whole than Doom. It was less expensive than PCs yet had a good selection of the sort of "mature" titles (or even ports) typically found on the PC. The PlayStation was not a platform that moved money from the "MSM" since it Sony which was the very definition of mainstream.

Doom was cool but it didn't even come close to doing what you suggest. It didn't even have Internet multiplayer until Kali (originally iDOOM) came up with their IPX/SPX bridging years after its release.

Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture – you just won’t find it on Instagram

#204

Post by pessimizer »

andrepd wrote: post #16
mdoms wrote: post #10

The truth is that today the counter-culture is the right wing dudes (and ladies) who won't be beholden to trigger warnings, won't treat particular words as if they have magical powers and won't try to get you fired if you openly believe that male and female are real concepts. If your cursor is hovering over the downvote button right now then that's natural - counter culture isn't popular. By definition.

That's precisely the irritating image people like that have of themselves, which does not correspond to reality. What does it mean "beholden to trigger warnings"? I'm not sure in which sense you are beholden to something which you likely haven't even encountered outside of internet posts making fun of trigger warnings. What magic words are those? Not saying n*gger in polite company isn't censorship, it's just good ma…

> Not saying n*gger in polite company isn't censorship, it's just good manners.

Is this not polite company? Do you think adding an asterisk makes a significant difference?

I'm black myself, do I get to say it? Could the question be more complicated than you're making it out to be?

edit: I mean - MCNeil at the NYT was quite literally doing what you just did: discussing whether certain language was acceptable or should be punished. Imagine being fired for this post two years from now. I don't care about McNeil in particular (the US is an "At-Will" country, workers have no real rights, he's a privileged guy), but the state of free expression right now is bizarre. The fact that it comes when old (and most of new media) media is more consolidated than it's ever been is not coincidental.

Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture – you just won’t find it on Instagram

#205

Post by [deleted] »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #147
bena wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wouldn't call them a counterculture by any stretch of the imagination. Kpop is deliberately manufactured culture. The personalities and music are meticulously curated by corporations. "Underground Kpop" is practically an oxymoron like a "married bachelor" would be. And that's not to insult or knock it.

Listening to KPop in a country where it is not a major genre, might still be counterculture. Think back to the 1960s and 1970s: a lot of the American rock 'n' roll even then was curated, but those young people in the Soviet Union, say, or Morocco who started listening to it where definitely seen as a counterculture within their own country.

[deleted]

Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture – you just won’t find it on Instagram

#206

Post by Nasrudith »

Mediterraneo10 wrote: post #186
dmitrygr wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait till they see how easy it is to make a lookalike app :)

The apps are expected to generate limited-time QR codes with the respective country’s digital signature (just like the biometric data in your passport), so no, your suggestion won't work.

Unless they somehow figured out a flaw in thr crypto that allowed for spoofing countries in which case holy shit why are you using it to fake vaccine certificates?

Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture – you just won’t find it on Instagram

#207

Post by kodah »

simonh wrote: post #146
kodah wrote: post #132

There's definitely an old internet culture that eschews social media and it has seemed to grow (again) over the years. One example is Freenode: - The network has some moderation, but bans are last resorts where on social media bans and temporary bans are part of the process. - Much of the moderation is left to channel operators and guides are given by the network on how to moderate. - Much of the network is apolitica…

You just described the internet I've been using for almost 30 years, split across various online forums, including this one. Couldn't agree more. I've managed to find a good handful of very high signal to noise Reddit topics too. G+ was good while it lasted. The trick is to have specific interests you care about and track down that community. They're out there. The encouraging thing is my kinds have found their own c…

It is still out there, you just have to work to attain it.

I'm happy to listen to the bemoaning, mainly because the newest and largest groups on the internet are the most problematic and most of them have no self-awareness to that end. Better that they hear the bemoaning and get a chance to change and choose not to.

Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture – you just won’t find it on Instagram

#208

Post by Nasrudith »

throwawayboise wrote: post #200
psychomugs wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of the tyranny of the remembering self. How much would you pay for a vacation where you can’t take any pictures and your memory is erased afterwards?

I stopped taking pictures on vacation (and other events) quite a while ago because I realized I never look at them later. So I spend the time being more focused on the actual thing, and have better memories. I wouldn't like the memory erased thing.

I find that is a mortons fork sort of thing - you basically can wind up with regrets for taking and not taking pictures.

Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture – you just won’t find it on Instagram

#209

Post by Nasrudith »

TacticalCoder wrote: post #179
pochamago wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To be truly countercultural in a time of literate hegemony, you must become illiterate"

What's posted on social networks makes you feel like we live in a time of literate hegemony?

The fact the contents are text and many prefer texting to voice calls for one? It may not be high art or even proper grammar but it is still literate.

Plus it demonstrates how vacuous defining something by what it is not really is - you can put anything in that hole.

To give a deliberately stupid as possible version - have you ever eaten toxic ocean snails? No? Then you are part of the not eating ocean cone snails hedgemony oppressing us all by their force of the not eating ocean snail ways.

Re: The internet didn’t kill counterculture – you just won’t find it on Instagram

#210

Post by watwut »

oceanplexian wrote: post #135
lamp_book wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I think that's an important distinction - you need a critical mass of people sharing in countercultural behavior/practices in some way to get an actual counterculture. Many people have eschewed social media for one reason or another but not in some unified way that I know of.

There’s 40% of the population you’re missing that doesn’t participate in social media because their ideas have been banned. Sure, they might have a Facebook or a Twitter but nothing substantive happens there. They believe in things like gun rights, freedom of speech and religion, and they often go to meeting places called a “church”, which these days could be considered “counter-culture”. Their values don’t come from…

There is huge amount of Christians and gin rights advocates on Twitter. The TV actually caters to them a lot.

Yet also, people from coastal states are like 75% od USA population.

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