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Twitter locks out Irish Bishop after he criticized euthanasia

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Re: Twitter locks out Irish Bishop after he criticized euthanasia

#201
post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1) My family is on Facebook. I am not. ;-) It's already the case that Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter for example have different "crowds", though there's some overlap. 2) Somehow humanity survived without these networks pre-2007ish. 3) I have no problem with the existence of many smaller special-interest social networks. Those are manageable, and we had them before the rise of the BigCos. The problem is with the exi…

Your point 1 contradicts your monopoly theory. Your point 2 says you really want to join the Amish. You mean smaller platforms like Parler or 4chan?

> Your point 1 contradicts your monopoly theory.

What is my "monopoly theory"? I clarified what I meant: "A platform so gigantic that it's impossible for humans to intelligently manage it". We don't really have a good term for a corporation that has undue, oversized market power. Pedants like to argue "so-and-so is not literally a monopoly!" but this is just wordplay and doesn't really address the serious social issues involved.

> Your point 2 says you really want to join the Amish.

Maybe!

> You mean smaller platforms like Parler or 4chan?

I mean smaller platforms. It would be ridiculous to suggest that your cherrypicked examples are representative. You can make anything look bad by cherrypicking.

Re: Twitter locks out Irish Bishop after he criticized euthanasia

#202
post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've literally seen people use the term 'modest proposal' in a non-satirical way missing the point. Also see how Jean Carroll has been described as a misandrist when she invoked the same phrase. And also see the difficulty that the 'abolish the police' movement have gotten into explaining that they don't literally mean abolish, especially since some of them do literally mean that, so you get really stuck trying to ex…

... some people do really support abolishing the police. And those people are also likely to go and protest. Sure, the bigger moderate masses picked up the slogan, but it started with that radical message. Plus on a realpolitik level it doesn't really matter what the slogan is. Really. See how tha ACA was turned into Obamacare and death panels. Yes, independents initially might be confused, yes a dumb slogan doesn't…

[deleted]

Re: Twitter locks out Irish Bishop after he criticized euthanasia

#203
I've been thinking about euthanasia lately. Last night, my Aunt passed away.

She has been suffering from early-onset Alzhemier's disease. A little over two weeks ago, she was admitted to the hospital because she lost the ability to swallow. Because of her deteriorating condition, they decided to send her to hospice care without life support. For two weeks, she had no food or water, save for the tiny amount in the morphine and atropine syringes they have her. No IV drip. Neither the medical staff nor my family expected she would survive that long. Two weeks of death by starvation and dehydration was horrible to witness.

Almost a decade ago, suicide impacted my family, so I had a lot of reservations about self-imposed euthanasia. Now, after seeing what it was like for my aunt, I'm not so sure anymore. We tried to visit her every day and play her the music that she wrote and loved (she was a musician). They say hearing is the last sense to go, so hopefully maybe that meant something to her, and she did respond after the first few days, but for two whole weeks... It seems excessive, and I wouldn't blame someone for pre-empting that.

Re: Twitter locks out Irish Bishop after he criticized euthanasia

#204
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a long and interesting conversation with my father about this. He's retired now, but was a family lawyer (solicitor in the UK). He is vehemently opposed to euthanasia purely on the grounds of his experiences with ailing/aging parents and greedy children - he's had clients tidy up their wills, often with their children looking over their shoulders, and then kill themselves to stop "being a burden" on their famil…

Hm. How does this work? Isn't the lawyers (and/or notaries) supposed to establish that the person making the will understands its content? How does suicide/euthanasia factor into this at all? If the aging/ailing person feels pressured by their descendants, how does living longer would help them? If they are capable of making/expressing their will aren't they capable of not taking euthanasia? On the other hand if they…

> if they are pressured by "loved ones" to end it with dignity, and they agree, who are we to disagree?

Well, my Dad for one ;) Family dynamics can get very ugly. If a family is emotionally manipulating any of its members into committing suicide, he feels that is wrong. I tend to agree, this feels wrong to me, even if everyone involved is saying that they're happy with it.

At the moment, all of this behaviour is legal, right up until the parent commits suicide. There's nothing the lawyer can do because there's no expressed intention to commit suicide (just the repeated "I don't want to be a burden" I guess - I'm never witnessed this myself). I think we could incorporate language into a Euthanasia bill to cope with this situation better than it is currently, but Dad disagrees, citing his experience of how manipulative families can get.

To summarise his view: families can be evil to each other. Some families already manipulate aging parents into suicide, which is wrong and should be opposed. Making assisted suicide legal and giving it a framework will encourage it, and any procedural hurdles won't stop that.

Re: Twitter locks out Irish Bishop after he criticized euthanasia

#205
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why does it matter if the flagging is automatic? Does that somehow make it more acceptable? The problem is very simple. Unless social media companies either stop moderating content, which will kill their profits because advertisers will run away, or pay people to moderate everything, which will kill their profit because it'd be wildly expensive, they'll continue to do the half-assed version of moderating they do now…

> or pay people to moderate everything, which will kill their profit because it'd be wildly expensive This gets repeated ad nauseam whenever excessive automated moderation is questioned on big platforms, but I have yet to see any actual evidence of it. I don't believe for a second that the likes of Google, Facebook, or Twitter can't afford to turn down their algorithms and significantly increase their manual moderati…

>Platforms like Reddit and Discord get along alright with limited automated moderation combined with a federated mod structure

Reddit is constantly criticized for the effects of its moderation policies, both in how arbitrary they can seem, and how they allowed genuinely law-breaking content to stay up at the discretion of those "volunteer" moderators. They are practically constantly in the news.

(Discord exclusively has invite-only communities, so it's a totally apples-to-oranges comparison)

While I would say that reddit's behavior is at least somewhat preferable to the topic of discussion, claiming it's without a similar level of criticism just means you don't actually use the platform.

It's also worth pointing out that what others have voiced regarding AI, that such a strategy just serves to deflect blame from the company, is just as true when relying on community volunteers. I suspect that the main reason that they don't make the front page of HN specifically is because "human makes a bad decision" is several orders of magnitude less interesting to this site than "AI makes a bad decision", regardless of the relative social harm.

Re: Twitter locks out Irish Bishop after he criticized euthanasia

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think essays like "A Modest Proposal" are likely to be misunderstood?

I've literally seen people use the term 'modest proposal' in a non-satirical way missing the point. Also see how Jean Carroll has been described as a misandrist when she invoked the same phrase. And also see the difficulty that the 'abolish the police' movement have gotten into explaining that they don't literally mean abolish, especially since some of them do literally mean that, so you get really stuck trying to ex…

And some people called Noam Chomsky a holocaust denier because some nutjob put an essay of Chomsky's in his book: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Faurisson_affair

Just because a few people are too dense to understand context doesn't mean we should restructure what we allow in society to accomodate them.

Re: Twitter locks out Irish Bishop after he criticized euthanasia

#209
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hm. How does this work? Isn't the lawyers (and/or notaries) supposed to establish that the person making the will understands its content? How does suicide/euthanasia factor into this at all? If the aging/ailing person feels pressured by their descendants, how does living longer would help them? If they are capable of making/expressing their will aren't they capable of not taking euthanasia? On the other hand if they…

> if they are pressured by "loved ones" to end it with dignity, and they agree, who are we to disagree? Well, my Dad for one ;) Family dynamics can get very ugly. If a family is emotionally manipulating any of its members into committing suicide, he feels that is wrong. I tend to agree, this feels wrong to me, even if everyone involved is saying that they're happy with it. At the moment, all of this behaviour is lega…

> Family dynamics can get very ugly.

Yeah, no questions about that.

Ah, okay, thanks for the explanation. Yeah, I understand this argument. Emotional abuse, exploitation of vulnerable groups (from elderly, minors, to folks with disabilities, homeless, unemployed, persecuted minorities, etc. etc, alas the list goes on for long) is already a problem, and in many jurisdictions it's already pushed back against.

I think protective care would help more if it were independent of euthanasia, because it would mean that if the manipulated relatives find out they have been manipulated and then change their minds about euthanasia then they don't have to go back to their manipulative relatives. (Duh, I know, but this catch-22 problem is very endemic in a lot of public "safety net" setups.)

> Making assisted suicide legal and giving it a framework will encourage it, and any procedural hurdles won't stop that.

It meaning manipulating others into it? Yes, that's probably tautologically true. But, that's the plan, to make it easier anyway, as it should decrease suicides, and even more importantly it should decrease time spent in misery and suffering. (And as I mentioned pushing back against exploitation should be a priority anyway.)

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