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UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

thetimes.co.uk

201–210 of 210 posts

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#201
post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I disagree. When someone breaks a key moral principle — let’s say they are a murderer – we don’t spend time discussing how they are also good to animals or make a mean chilli. That doesn’t offset their transgression, so it becomes essentially irrelevant. A key moral principle for a democratic government is to maintain public trust in democracy and its institutions. By pilfering public funds to enrich themselv…

I think this sort of thing has to be contextual. Is there any government or governing party anywhere that meets these standards? Applied as it is hear, unless I'm missing something, your take means that there's no point or legitimacy to any conversation (EG a HN post) about any new UK agency (or sewage plant, school, energy plan, etc.) besides "they're corrupt, look at their other dealings." I'm sympathetic to the mo…

This is not "corrupt but useful", it's "corrupt and useless".

> I think this sort of thing has to be contextual.

The context is that UK government gave £22 BILLION to private companies for Test and Trace, and they wasted most of it contributing to the very high death rate to covid in the UK.

https://committees.parliament.uk/work/906/covid19-test-track...

> At times, parts of the national tracing service have barely been used: in May, DHSC signed contracts for the provision of 3,000 health professionals and 18,000 call handlers. The call handler contracts were worth up to £720 million. By 17 June, the utilisation rate (the proportion of time that someone actively worked during their paid hours) was low for both health professional (4%) and call handler staff (1%), indicating that they had little work to do. This means substantial public resources have been spent on staff who provided minimal services in return.

> National and local government have tried to increase public engagement with tracing, but surveys suggest that the proportion of contacts fully complying with requests to self-isolate might range from 10% to 59%. NHST&T acknowledges that non-compliance poses a key risk to its success and has taken steps to increase levels of self-isolation, for example by making follow-up calls to people while they are self-isolating. For as long as compliance is low, the cost-effectiveness of NHST&T’s activities will inevitably be in doubt.

That's one example. There are dozens of other examples.

> Companies awarded pandemic-related contracts include Randox, which received £479m for Covid testing. The firm pays Conservative MP Owen Paterson £100,000 a year as a consultant.

> Meanwhile, Dominic Cummings’s father-in-law Sir Humphry Wakefield is an associate of the director of Admiral Public Relations, which received £670,000.

> Health minister Edward Argar is a former senior executive at Serco, which is in charge of much of the contact-tracing system. The company’s chief executive is Rupert Soames, brother of ex-Tory MP Sir Nicholas Soames.

> Public First, whose directors previously worked for Mr Cummings and Michael Gove, was also paid £840,000 for “focus group research”.

etc etc.

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#202
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of raw salary, I think the current mess is more a result of the government's own "pay cap" crusade over the last decade—I haven't known anyone really be against the idea that public sector salaries should at least have kept pace with inflation, and I feel like there wasn't really any call for the dirty tactics the government has brought to negotiation over the past few years. But you're probably right that p…

> In terms of raw salary, I think the current mess is more a result of the government's own "pay cap" crusade over the last decade—I haven't known anyone really be against the idea that public sector salaries should at least have kept pace with inflation, and I feel like there wasn't really any call for the dirty tactics the government has brought to negotiation over the past few years. A general "pay scale" mindset…

> There is often a culture of cost-cutting in the wider public sector for the purpose of "being seen to be frugal". I've watched people (in their best intentions to be frugal) waste huge amounts of money, through short-sighted attempts to save money through false economies.

One hundred percent... we probably all have stories of this that could go on forever! For my part, one of the most costly ways I've seen it manifest is a culture of treating staff time as free in comparison with any expenditure. Getting a purchase—even say a £10 book—is a protracted process that ends up draining hours of multiple peoples' time trying to find and convince a budget holder and get the right forms signed, and even that often doesn't meet with success. It's a double-whammy for wastage because there's not just the gross cost of funding staff doing this, but the opportunity cost of lost productivity on whatever else they would have been working on.

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#203
post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It existed yesterday, last year. I'm sure Winston Churchill's girlfriend also did well out of the deal. c'est la vie. It's exactly this type of dismissal that allows this level of corruption to fester. It was unacceptable yesterday and it still is today. The point is to try and do something about it rather than sit back while they make it harder to punish because "it's already a problem". A research fund where the…

I am not dismissing anything. I am saying that corruption is not the only topic at hand. They're also trying to create a government agency. That is also a subject matter.

> I am not dismissing anything

Then you've totally missed the point. People aren't arguing against the creation of a government research agency, they're arguing against the creation of one which makes it even easier for those in charge to put it to corrupt use. Remove the secrecy clause and the majority of the opposition disappears.

That this inscrutable agency is being set under a government with a record of misappropriating public funds for their personal gain is an aggravating factor and only servers as further proof as to why it's a terrible idea.

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#205

OK so the British HNers commenting seem to be unimpressed. :) Leaving this specific agency/project aside, what would be the right way to do this? How do we do public investment in high risk projects well?

No, no they're not. A vocal, biased minority who are fed the narrative of "Tory bad" 'cause they don't read anything other than The Guardian are out in force.

Most Brits either don't know about this, don't care, or think it's cool and are getting on with their shit.

I am personally thrilled by the announcement. I hope it works out well and we make something of it.

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with this line of argument is that it ignores the specifics of the case and overgeneralizes to a version of the slippery-slope fallacy. If someone were proposing building a sewage plant immune to FOI requests, I'd be feckin' terrified, much less worried about corruption. And I'm pretty blase about corruption in various activities (such as the ever-popular road construction and maintenance) in the US.

what slippery slope? What general case? Everything I said was specifically about this agency, this HN thread.

"The problem with this line of argument is that it applies to anything and everything done under the current conservative banner. ... Whether it's a British DARPA, new sewage plant, or change to the tax code, the only thing to say is..."

I don't read that as being about this agency.

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#207
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In terms of raw salary, I think the current mess is more a result of the government's own "pay cap" crusade over the last decade—I haven't known anyone really be against the idea that public sector salaries should at least have kept pace with inflation, and I feel like there wasn't really any call for the dirty tactics the government has brought to negotiation over the past few years. A general "pay scale" mindset…

> There is often a culture of cost-cutting in the wider public sector for the purpose of "being seen to be frugal". I've watched people (in their best intentions to be frugal) waste huge amounts of money, through short-sighted attempts to save money through false economies. One hundred percent... we probably all have stories of this that could go on forever! For my part, one of the most costly ways I've seen it manif…

> For my part, one of the most costly ways I've seen it manifest is a culture of treating staff time as free in comparison with any expenditure. Getting a purchase—even say a £10 book—is a protracted process that ends up draining hours of multiple peoples' time trying to find and convince a budget holder and get the right forms signed, and even that often doesn't meet with success.

1000x this. First it's ignoring the opportunity cost, but there's also the lack of acknowledgement of staffing costs (as they are considered sunken) - the person's pay was already budgeted for, but the £10 book hasn't been budgeted for. Also using up the time of senior (valuable and expensive) people in these kinds of processes. The argument is always that it prevents fraud or corruption, but anyone who knows internal processes would realise that there are far easier (and more lucrative) ways to commit fraud or corruption than the travel expenses system, that would be far harder to detect, and far easier to explain away.

2 more big problems that need solved (one of which alludes to your point):

- Your book is a capital expenditure, but the people administering the kakfa-esque process of approving your expenses are paid as opex. Your department has an Opex budget it aims to spend each year. There's no recognition that "money is money" -- if your budget is for capex, it cannot be used to buy a book! And vice versa! In some organisations (generally handling research grants), money is further ring-fenced into buckets like "Travel & subsistence" and "consumables". Even mid-pandemic, good luck spending money set aside for Travel & subsistance on a consumable, even one arising directly from not being able to travel...

- Annualised accounting, meaning budgets disappear into thin air on the 5th of April, thus driving spend to happen sooner than it needs to, and creating a culture of "spend it or lose it" - the inability for funds to roll over, even when there's a good reason, leads to programmes being pushed to spend more money faster. Letting funding roll over, by allocating budgets as "cash" would be so much more effective.

I hope ARIA will be able to escape from annualised accounting and simply spend its budget, without worrying about capex/opex etc.

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For those doubting the above, here is an example from the recent past of corruption from the Prime Minister, paying his lover with public funds: https://metro.co.uk/2019/10/31/10000-grant-given-boris-johns...

The problem with this line of argument is that it applies to anything and everything done under the current conservative banner. IE, Torrie/Boris corruption is the only topic. Whether it's a British DARPA, new sewage plant, or change to the tax code, the only thing to say is " They're corrupt. This is just another pilfering. " I'm sympathetic to the focus on corruption. Corruption is bad. That said, I don't think the…

Corruption in the UK is classed as "very low" according to: [1]. Pretty sure it will happen with any political party unfortunately, but it's not something I worry too much about. If this ARIA can produce world-changing tech then I'm happy for a little insider deals.

[1] https://risk-indexes.com/global-corruption-index/

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#209

OK so the British HNers commenting seem to be unimpressed. :) Leaving this specific agency/project aside, what would be the right way to do this? How do we do public investment in high risk projects well?

The British HNers skew left. Boris Johnson could personally cure cancer and they would complain about the oncologists that would become unemployed.

This 100 times. Hello normal person.

Re: UK to launch taxpayer-funded high-risk tech research agency exempt from FOI

#210
I'm going to make a prediction, the leadership of this agency will be in hot water within 5 years. And the whole thing will be abandoned after frittering away billions of tax-payer Pounds within 6 to 7 years. Matt Ridley, author of How Innovation Works, is right, governments are poor drivers of innovation - and this little 'distraction' is going to be another case to prove his point.
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