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If you want peace, study war

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Re: If you want peace, study war

#201

Post by [deleted] »

deterministic wrote: post #200
lmilcin wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, wars are messy business. Usually if there is so much disparity in power that the outcome is known beforehand it does not come to war. US had declared Axis powers to be the enemy and then the enemy was defeated. Nobody questions that US was key to winning WWII. It seems impossible that soviets would hold if Nazi Germany was able to send all their resources to eastern front. Even with the help on the western front…

The US did almost nothing for 4 years, except selling materials to Europe in return for gold. It only joined the war after Europeans had already killed more than 23 million Germans, and destroyed most of its military. Claiming that the US won the war is BS. The US was part of a large group of countries that won the war, all contributing to defeat the Nazis.

[deleted]

Re: If you want peace, study war

#202

Post by SllX »

clairity wrote: post #169
SllX wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, but when the leader is a politician, he has skin in a different game: getting re-elected. It doesn’t stop them from going to war, but it makes it less likely.

that's a different game from putting your life at risk.

I agree. It is however a strong motivation that has an effect on the choices of the civilian leadership of the military.

Re: If you want peace, study war

#203

Post by barry-cotter »

AnimalMuppet wrote: post #146
ncmncm wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US military did not win the war, at least in Europe. They pottered around in Africa, Italy, and Belgium while the Soviet army won the war. Ten of the ten biggest battles were on the eastern front, while a tiny fraction of axis assets held off the West for years. Western bombing (despite huge losses) had negligible effect on German industrial production, which increased right up to 1945. (US industrial imports to…

What were you going to use to enforce the blockade? Torpedoes?

Mines, lots and lots of mines.

Re: If you want peace, study war

#204

Post by redis_mlc »

boomboomsubban wrote: post #106
robin21 wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Wars only start if we let them, and then stop when we take an interest. The US wasn't always a powerful military force. It became this way after WWII. So no, it wasn't the case then, but yes, it is pretty much the case today. Every country knows that they cannot win a traditional war against the US - so the OPs point is correct here. It's just lucky that the US is not imperialistic. Imagine if China was the most po…

>It's just lucky that the US is not imperialistic. Imagine if China was the most powerful militarily. Another jaw dropping example of American exceptionalism. Look at your link, notice how we call the start of the PRC the "loss of China?" Any country not under our economic and political dominion is labeled the enemy

> notice how we call the start of the PRC the "loss of China?"

The PRC was literally the "loss of China" - the Cultural Revolution destroyed most of China's customs and history.

> Any country not under our economic and political dominion is labeled the enemy

The CCP is not just ideologically opposed to the US, but has been in an undeclared cold war since Mao in the 1950's. The CCP is our enemy - just look at their refusal to allow outside corona investigators to visit Wuhan for a year, or the large-scale spying in Western countries, etc.

Why are you shilling for the CCP, who harvest organs from religious group members on an industrial scale for export?

Re: If you want peace, study war

#205

Post by nicbou »

jhpriestley wrote: post #191
nicbou wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't speak for the other nations, but Nazi Germany was a very poor country. The standard of living in Germany was relatively bad, in no small part because of the post-war economic turmoil. I submit the first few chapters of Wages of Destruction as my source. I am totally unqualified to summarize it, but it's shock full of data that support this thesis. It's a really good book.

I'd be curious to know more, I'll try to take a look at that book when I get a chance. Are you saying, though, that Nazi Germany was very poor relative to its neighbors (e.g. France, Poland, Italy) or relative to the world at the time (e.g. Mexico) or in an absolute sense (widespread extreme poverty, lack of basic necessities of life)?

The comparisons in the book are to Britain, France and the United States.

It's an excellent book if you're into economics. It gives you a much better understanding of Germany's hand, and how it affected its politics.

Re: If you want peace, study war

#206

Post by wizzwizz4 »

Razengan wrote: post #135
wizzwizz4 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Next you'll be saying millions of humans want to be addicted to social media. I don't understand how you could even think this in the first place, let alone believe it to be true.

I mean you believe that human sentiments of “good” and “evil” matter much outside of human heads, or that the world would magically be a much better place if no wars ever happened. (of course I predict you will cherry pick some wars to be perfectly justified)

You don't need a Great Stone Tablet to make things worth fighting for.

Re: If you want peace, study war

#207

Post by Razengan »

wizzwizz4 wrote: post #206
Razengan wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean you believe that human sentiments of “good” and “evil” matter much outside of human heads, or that the world would magically be a much better place if no wars ever happened. (of course I predict you will cherry pick some wars to be perfectly justified)

You don't need a Great Stone Tablet to make things worth fighting for.

And what is “worth”?

You’re just replacing a stone tablet with one in your head.

Re: If you want peace, study war

#208

Post by ncmncm »

barry-cotter wrote: post #113
ncmncm wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US military did not win the war, at least in Europe. They pottered around in Africa, Italy, and Belgium while the Soviet army won the war. Ten of the ten biggest battles were on the eastern front, while a tiny fraction of axis assets held off the West for years. Western bombing (despite huge losses) had negligible effect on German industrial production, which increased right up to 1945. (US industrial imports to…

The Soviet Union could not have won without US support of arms and materiel. It might have been able to survive in some form by completely abandoning everything east of the Urals. US industrial production was crucial to Soviet survival, not a nice to have. Costly business, dividing up Eastern Europe in the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact.

"West of", perhaps?

But it had beaten back most if the invasion before US materiel showed up in substantial quantity, and its industrial output (also) grew dramatically throughout the war.

Whether it could have secured enough food to sustain that output, without US SPAM, is unclear; the Soviets openly acknowledged the importance of the SPAM. The hundreds of thousands of trucks, millions of tires, millions of tons of steel, and corresponding amount of refined petrolem the US delivered probably mattered too, when it finally got there. Soviet pilots liked the P-39s, sort of proto-A10s.

The Soviet materiel placement in 1941, immediately before Germany invaded, was consistent with immediate plans to invade Germany.

Re: If you want peace, study war

#209

Post by rodaveli »

Brings to mind The Judge's position on war from McCarthy's Blood Meridian:

"It makes no difference what men think of war, said the judge. War endures. As well ask men what they think of stone. War was always here. Before man was, war waited for him. The ultimate trade awaiting its ultimate practitioner. That is the way it was and will be. That way and not some other way."

Re: If you want peace, study war

#210

Post by AnimalMuppet »

deterministic wrote: post #200
lmilcin wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, wars are messy business. Usually if there is so much disparity in power that the outcome is known beforehand it does not come to war. US had declared Axis powers to be the enemy and then the enemy was defeated. Nobody questions that US was key to winning WWII. It seems impossible that soviets would hold if Nazi Germany was able to send all their resources to eastern front. Even with the help on the western front…

The US did almost nothing for 4 years, except selling materials to Europe in return for gold. It only joined the war after Europeans had already killed more than 23 million Germans, and destroyed most of its military. Claiming that the US won the war is BS. The US was part of a large group of countries that won the war, all contributing to defeat the Nazis.

Four years? Counting how? War in Europe began in September 1939. So the US didn't do anything until September 1943? Bull. (I mean, I guess they didn't land in Europe until Italy, which was 1943. But even though it wasn't in Europe, they were still fighting Germany in Africa in 1942.)

> It only joined the war after Europeans had already killed more than 23 million Germans, and destroyed most of its military.

German military casualties were only 5.3 million by the high estimate. Total German casualties were only 7.4 million by the high estimate - for the whole war. So... I don't know where you get your ideas, but they are objectively very wrong.

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