People who are making claims about hospital capacity should compare them to the same times in previous years. The data is all available online: https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas...
So, January 2019 in London Commissioning Region hospitals: 1033 open adult critical care beds; 882 in use. 85% utilisation. Best-case forecast Jan 2021: 2078 critical care beds required, 1,661 available (increase of ~600). Forecasted 125% utilistation.
London will be overwhelmed by Covid in a fortnight says leaked NHS briefing
201–210 of 391 posts
Re: London will be overwhelmed by Covid in a fortnight says leaked NHS briefing
#202Ignorant US Guy here: I had to google to learn a 'Fortnight' is 14-days / 2 weeks.
??? Is this not an extremely common phrase? I'm not from the UK (or the US) but... I've never considered this phrase is not known in America?
Re: London will be overwhelmed by Covid in a fortnight says leaked NHS briefing
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
A colleague made the point that we need more pictures of overflowing morgues and ICUs and (like is happening in LA) people waiting in an ambulance for 7-8 hours (and some of those people dying because of it). Just like the US government banned (discouraged?) pictures of caskets coming back from war. These images need to be on the news and on news websites 24/7.
At the beginning of this pandemic, I watched a 2-3 min video of a Turin hospital (back when Italy was the epicenter in the west) of people silently choking to death in their ventilators. It was absolutely fucking eerie and insane and every time I think of doing something risky, I think about the sound in that video. Unfortunately in this context, it is illegal to film people in a hospital. I think that's a fair rule…
Re: London will be overwhelmed by Covid in a fortnight says leaked NHS briefing
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
NHS is overwhelmed every winter if the hyperbolic headlines are to be believed
Just to flesh this out, the NHS could use more money, but it's worth saying that it's the only European healthcare system I'm aware of so fragile. If you ask a lot of British people they seem to think that the only alternative is the wild west found in the US, rather than the other healthcare systems in Europe. There was a good piece in the private eye a few years ago listing headlines saying the NHS is doomed tomorr…
https://twitter.com/KulganofCrydee/status/833654730849136641
>Just to flesh this out, the NHS could use more money, but it's worth saying that it's the only European healthcare system I'm aware of so fragile.
You've fallen for the very "NHS is more fragile than systems in other countries" mantra that the Private Eye piece mocks. COVID19 has overwhelmed the French, Belgian, and Italian systems too.
>If you ask a lot of British people they seem to think that the only alternative is the wild west found in the US, rather than the other healthcare systems in Europe.
The NHS is unique in being so unified. I'm not sure there's another European country in which one government entity runs insurance, billing, and delivery. Because the UK is the foreign country Americans are most exposed to (Canada doesn't count), this results in both Americans and Britons thinking that all healthcare plans outside the US are like the NHS, when actually the norm is something closer to that of France, Germany, or the Netherlands.
Government running every aspect of healthcare means that every aspect of healthcare is a political issue. The consequent level of weaponization of the NHS in British political rhetoric is flabbergasting. It's said that Social Security (the US version of UK National Insurance) is the "third rail" of American politics—any politician that touches it gets electrocuted—but there is no comparison. I, for one, have no desire whatsoever to ever experience the US equivalent of how in the UK the NHS is always, Always, ALWAYS the #1 or #2 topic of every single election, with every candidate competing to outdo the others in promising that the NHS will "always be free" and that he is the only candidate who can make sure that the local GP's surgery hours will widen and that the A&E will no longer be "the worst in England" or "the second-worst in Yorkshire". The Private Eye piece is the result of the above.
(Canada, also with a single-payer system, sensibly divorces billing from providers. As in the US private entities deliver most healthcare, and in both countries if one's doctor has inconvenient hours or if the local hospital has substandard care, one simply goes to another as opposed to having this being something politicians are expected to fix.)
Re: London will be overwhelmed by Covid in a fortnight says leaked NHS briefing
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
The data you provided isn't easily compared to the data in the article. I did a pivot off the Jan 2019 data and got this... LONDON COMMISSIONING REGION Adult Critical Care Beds: Open: 1033 Occupied: 882 -------------- Total: 1915 According to the Article London has... BEST CASE Adult Critical Care Beds: Unmitigated: 1392 Mitigated: 1661 So they lost 300-600 beds capacity since 2019?
Austria and Germany also report lower total ICU capacities than 1 year ago before the start of the pandemic. Weird...
Re: London will be overwhelmed by Covid in a fortnight says leaked NHS briefing
#206People who are making claims about hospital capacity should compare them to the same times in previous years. The data is all available online: https://www.england.nhs.uk/statistics/statistical-work-areas...
This is a consistent taking point among the more egregious parts of the “lockdown skeptic” crew and it is, of course, absolute bullshit - it’s based on shallow comparisons of numbers that are not comparable. If you do decide to promote this talking point anyway, flag it with the appropriate disclaimer from the NHS: …caution should be exercised in comparing overall occupancy rates between this year and previous years.…
Why?
Re: London will be overwhelmed by Covid in a fortnight says leaked NHS briefing
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
What do you gain by insulting them and calling them idiots? What if it just makes them even worse? Not saying they don't fit the definition... but maybe the reaction doesn't actually help.
In every society since the dawn of man, certain things carried a social cost. In our society, advocating idiotic conspiracies should carry, IMHO, a social cost of feeling embarrassed and stupid. Frankly.
Re: London will be overwhelmed by Covid in a fortnight says leaked NHS briefing
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
Speaking only for myself, I think your opinion is idiotic based on some simple back of the envelope math I did many months ago (when the UK announced its herd immunity plan), relating to hospital capacity, likely peak case numbers, proportion of cases that would need hospital treatment or die and some simple minded guesses about knock-on effects for the rest of the health system. I have not bothered to redo these cal…
if we let the virus lives its life, maximum 2% of pop will die, 90 more % will live normally and a few percent will have covid related health issues. so we sacrifice a few percent of population for the future of the others
[ EDIT: the number I originally used for "requiring hospitalization" were way off. I've edited to reflect data from September provided by the CDC. The 20% -> ICU figure comes from the NYC experience in May, but seems roughly correct from other global hotspots ]
Roughly 0.4% of those who catch COVID19 will require hospitalization. Of those, 20% will require ICU treatment.
In the end, the entire human race will be exposed to SARS-COV-2. If that happens all on the same day, or week, or month or probably even year, no health care system in the world can possibly deal with the case load.
Some of those who might have survived COVID19 with hospital care will die.
But (and this is the important part) those with other medical conditions that timely and effective health care could have treated will also die. Trauma (e.g. car or tool accidents). Infectious disease. Cancer. Chronic health conditions.
And in killing all these people, you've made nothing better for those who survive, because if you think the economy has gone to hell under current attempts to deal with it, you clearly cannot imagine it as the entire health care system melts down.
COVID19 is not a personal health crisis. Most people will not die of it (even though hundreds of thousands will, which is not going to be much comfort to their families, friends, colleagues and neighbors. It is a public health crisis that threatens to overwhelm our health care systems and thus have far worse effects than just the disease itself.
Re: London will be overwhelmed by Covid in a fortnight says leaked NHS briefing
#209Re: London will be overwhelmed by Covid in a fortnight says leaked NHS briefing
#2103478 people died from COVID in the US yesterday. https://covidtracking.com/data/charts/us-daily-deaths
~1700 people per day die of heart disease in America and have done so for decades. I think we should shut down the economy until we can get everyone's heart healthy.