Ten year study: No link between violent video games and aggressive behavior • Hacker News Board

Re: Ten year study: No link between violent video games and aggressive behavior

#201

Post by giantg2 » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

giantg2 wrote: post #151

zeku wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does lead to issues. I'm a young enough to have gone through school with zero tolerance policies and heavy use of police calls. I got a record with my school for cursing in the 8th grade. That's right. I got suspended from a public school for 2 weeks and kicked off the football team and out of the school play for saying, "What the fuck?!" in shock after a kid poured something down the back of my shirt. This lead t…

Yeah, I was sort of at the beginning of those policies. I think there were still enough older teachers/administrators that thought it was BS, that many of the minor issues never resulted in anything extreme. I remember one teacher caught me and another kid in a bit of a scuffle (not really a fight) over a prank gone wrong. Basically, we both apologized to each other and discussed the mistake/misunderstanding. We didn…

Haha, I almost forgot this gem. In grade school, I accidentally brought a pocket knife to school since it was left in one of the side pouches of my backpack after a camping trip the previous weekend. I was naive then. I told my teacher about it, which could have ended very badly. His response, "Just don't take it out or tell anyone". Oh, the good old days.

Re: Ten year study: No link between violent video games and aggressive behavior

#202

Post by claudiawerner » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

yazboo wrote: post #80

I have noticed that many social science articles posted on Hacker News bring out critical comments about study design, doubts about the strength of the study's conclusions, that kind of thing. This submission, on the other hand, is a link to some kind of gaming news website, which links to an abstract for an article in a Cyberpsychology (?) journal which costs $60 to access, and there is widespread and uncritical agr…

It's entirely confirmation bias; try posting a study or meta-analysis showing the inverse, or - and I think this will fare even worse - a meta-analysis of the effects of pornography on attitudes or sexual aggression.

The literature on pornography is more mixed and contentious, though. On violent video games and "gaming addiction", there seems to be less and less going for the hypothesis that they cause violence or aggression.

However, from what reading I've done, you will find that longitudinal results in porn and video games are dissonant with experimental results in lab settings. This suggests that while there are effects, they do not persist to the level thought. More complex models (such as the confluence model in porn effects research) which try and explain apparent hidden variables are also gaining steam. There are actually only four or five major contemporary figures in porn effects research; Wright and Tokunaga finding that porn has negative effects on everyone; Hald and Malamuth finding that the main or only worry only lies in those low in agreeableness and predisposed to aggressive behaviour.

To a bunch of gamers and porn-users (including myself in both of those categories), these things are either things we spend a lot of time doing (for a portion of HN, I suspect their entire leisure time is taken up by video games), or they are very personal and private. Nothing is more personal than what we get off to, so any analysis of porn tends to be taken as an assault on sexuality itself (though interestingly, much as with advertising or propaganda, the very same sexuality cultivated by porn consumption).

I've tried discussing the literature on video games, porn, violence, aggression, and morality before on both HN and Reddit, and the discussion is either ignored or shot down with downvotes because any discussion at all feels like a personal attack.

I'd recommend for anyone interested in the topic of video games and aggression or behaviour, and indeed the hot topic of "video game addiction" to check out the papers by CJ Ferguson, who has a positive view on video games. At the same time, check out the people he replies to and the people replying to him. It's ridiculous to draw any conclusion from a study that happens to reach the top of HN.

Re: Ten year study: No link between violent video games and aggressive behavior

#203

Post by dr_orpheus » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 5:33 PM UTC

watwut wrote: post #122

moron4hire wrote: post #21

I'll tell you what does make me more aggressive. It's not the content of the video game itself. It's the other players in the multiplayer. I've basically sworn off of multiplayer for well over a decade now, with only vanishingly brief revisits to confirm things are only getting worse.

This study is strictly about whether you are more violent 10 years after playing the game. If does not study at all the actual issue most of those who lived with excessive gamers (whether kid or adult) have. Meaning, annoying aggression right after playing and verbal abuse toward household members because they dare to exist if same flat where he lost the match.

Anecdotally, nearly all of my friends growing up played violent video games. I did see this behavior from one of my friends and his aggression following losing a video game. But he also had the same reaction after we lost a soccer game as well. I think that video games may show this effect, but it is not necessarily the cause. After all, all of my friends played the same violent video games (often together); the individual was the common factor in the aggressive activity, not the game.

Re: Ten year study: No link between violent video games and aggressive behavior

#204

Post by sosborn » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

afandian wrote: post #129

gruez wrote: post #106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is it any different than any other forms of art (eg. movies, tv, books) that depict human cruelty?

I agree with you, and the GP. Hyper-realistic movies depicting human unpleasantness aren't much different to hyper-realistic games depicting human unpleasantness. Why do people enjoy spending their leisure time experiencing that? It's not a rhetorical question.

I enjoy movies that make me uncomfortable because of the self-reflection they tend to induce. Those films don't make me want to treat people poorly, they make me want to be kinder.

Re: Ten year study: No link between violent video games and aggressive behavior

#205

Post by kiliancs » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

mywittyname wrote: post #126

umvi wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's probably confirmation bias. Same reason a study with positive outcomes about coffee/alcohol/gay parenthood/gender reassignment/ are not criticized as much as a study on the same topic that had negative outcomes. We want certain things to be true so we (consciously or not) avoid criticizing studies bolstering what we want to be true and harshly criticize studies we want to be false. I like to think science always…

I mean, part of this is probably also some degree of us intuitively knowing the answer. If you have a friend group of 10 people, 4 of which regularly work out. You will probably notice that those 4 friends have less body fat and are more toned than the other 6. At that point, if a study came out saying that working out had no impact on body physique, you'd reflexively question the results. That might sound ridiculous…

Intuitively, it's hard to believe that witnessing and using violence doesn't have any negative effect on a person, even if in videogames.

I think that rather than asking ourselves "does this have a negative impact?" we should ask "what can I do that has a positive impact?".

Personally, I would never work on a game with significant violence. From my point of view, there are so many other things a human being can contribute towards the well-being and progress of humanity, and I would not feel happy with myself if I limited my contribution and my creativity to making another shooter.

Re: Ten year study: No link between violent video games and aggressive behavior

#206

Post by macjohnmcc » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 5:36 PM UTC

Waterluvian wrote: post #52

macjohnmcc wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When my son was around 4 I was playing GTA and was not playing it violently when I took a car from someone and they tried to pull me out he said "Hit him dad! Hit him!" but never in his life (he is 21 now) has he struck anyone. It was just a game to him.

My four year old watched me play a Dark Souls boss and just laughed and wanted to try (and get crushed).

My son now regularly crushes me in all video games and has for more than 10 years. :)

Re: Ten year study: No link between violent video games and aggressive behavior

#207

Post by techlaw » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

This is frustrating. Although I understand why this study is helpful, I believe it would have been much more helpful had we been asking a different question.

Violence, per se, is not as relevant as the context for that violence. The more revelatory question is not whether 'violent video games do lead to agression' but instead whether they could.

If, for example, the protagonist in a video game has an attitude or behavior that is treated as aspirational then it's more likely that players of that game (especially those with less life experience) will themselves ascribe to that attitude or behavior. And if that newfound attitude or behavior persists, then over time it is likely to lead to changes in action.

The study that would be more helpful is not the one that evaluates the impact of violent content due to its mere presence but rather evaluates the impact based on the context in which that violence is presented.

Re: Ten year study: No link between violent video games and aggressive behavior

#208

Post by mlyle » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 5:37 PM UTC

rbosinger wrote: post #84

alexfrydl wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unless you mean right now because of carona, I'm not sure what about “this day and age” is more dangerous than when you grew up.

There are more people around. More cars. Where I live, there's about 1000x more needles than when I grew up. Way more crazy people roaming around. Maybe statistically they aren't causing any problems, but they sure harass me enough. Especially when it comes to "playing in the woods". The woods around town are the worst place now. We used to find camps and places where teenagers would party here and there but now when…

> It's not my imagination. My parents see the same thing. I don't care if the statistics say it's better.

Kind of strange, though, isn't it? We live in a safer time than any before (have regressed slightly in the past few years), but many, many people have an intrinsic gut reaction that things are getting worse.

"Our sires' age was worse than our grandsires'. We, their sons, are more worthless than they; so in our turn we shall give the world a progeny yet more corrupt." - Horace, ~20BC

Re: Ten year study: No link between violent video games and aggressive behavior

#209

Post by scotty79 » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 5:39 PM UTC

pansa2 wrote: post #98

I must admit, I don't understand the appeal of the most violent video games. I recently read "The Last of Us Part II" described as being "about [...] the awful things that humans can do to each other" [0]. Why would I want to spend my leisure time experiencing that? How is that entertaining? [0] https://www.theguardian.com/games/2020/dec/23/the-15-best-vi...

> "about [...] the awful things that humans can do to each other"

> [...] How is that entertaining?

I know what you mean. I have the same feelings, but restricted to depictions in my native language of people hurting each other in psychologically realistic ways.

I'm not bothered with any physical violence especially voiced with English dialogues. They somehow seem cartoonish to me.

But I pretty much have to avoid all Polish movies because they often use those really unpleasant themes.

They are made because they have audience. I have friends who love those movies and themes.

I tried to find out, what exactly appeals to them in those themes and best I could get out of them was that those brutal themes are somehow more 'real', that they expose how people 'truly' are. And that somehow has a value for them.

Probably morbid fascination pays a part in this too.

Re: Ten year study: No link between violent video games and aggressive behavior

#210

Post by gregmac » Tue, Dec 29, 2020, 5:40 PM UTC

umvi wrote: post #170

mywittyname wrote: post #126

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, part of this is probably also some degree of us intuitively knowing the answer. If you have a friend group of 10 people, 4 of which regularly work out. You will probably notice that those 4 friends have less body fat and are more toned than the other 6. At that point, if a study came out saying that working out had no impact on body physique, you'd reflexively question the results. That might sound ridiculous…

There's some truth here, but it's important not to use anecdotes too much to guide intuition because the sample size is often too small and too biased. For example, I have a group of 10 friends. All 10 of them (including myself) got covid, and we all agree it is no worse than the flu. I mean, yeah, we couldn't smell or taste for a few days, but we all recovered within a week. Therefore... I should reflexively questio…

> There's some truth here, but it's important not to use anecdotes too much to guide intuition because the sample size is often too small and too biased.

In a community like HN there's also kind of a "meta-anecdote" that emerges. If there was a link, you'd expect to see at least someone posting an ancedote about how their friend got into violent games and then became violent themselves; instead it's mainly the opposite.

I'm still not arguing this observation is scientifically rigorous in any way whatsoever, merely that multiple ancedotes can be more useful than a single one. There could be other reasons such as those that are violent or hang out with those that are don't post on HN - but that also hints there is something more to it then just or even the violent games themselves.