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Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

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Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#201

Post by georgesC »

arcticbull wrote: post #192
georgesC wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that so many people don't know that cash/fiat is losing value over time makes it somewhat of a problem. Furthermore the creation of cash/fiat creates high benefits to those that benefits from the newly created money first, before the money spreads and devalues its value due to inflation over time. Inflation vs deflation debate is a complicated one, I don't know which is best in terms of enabling technical pr…

Not changing is nice conceptually but very bad in practice because the real world changes. It doesn’t map. It’s one of those software engineering tendencies to rewrite instead of understand and improve. One side note though. Consider that inflation doesn’t affect the poor as the poor live paycheck to paycheck and wages in the US have kept pace with inflation. The wealthy don’t hold cash, they invest. Even cash tends…

In practice, I'd say "selected" lower level standards aren't changed but built upon. Standard tools also tends to not change much. web protocols, C, C++, php, those are not getting away despite many attempts to reinvent the wheel. Maybe someone will make a better wheel one day, or maybe not, but for me it's nice to have a starting point in the domain of p2p "exchange" that may or may not be adopted as a standard.

As for inflation, it makes it harder for the poor workers to become wealthier, but the issue is more when it stops being sustainable. Inflationary fiat has proven that it could fail. I personally don't trust those persons handling it and I feel that such sentiment is growing among people. There's reasons behind that. That is terrible for a currency. Governments may or may not start having a better monetary policy. We don't have guarantees and much control over it, that's the issue for me. I'd rather avoid an economical disaster and keep a business running than having to deal with the failure of others.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#202

Post by X6S1x6Okd1st »

arcticbull wrote: post #188
X6S1x6Okd1st wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yup, last I checked there is so much resistance to increasing the block size that there was multiple forks about it. The hope for scaling bitcoin is on stuff like the lightning network and other more esoteric stuff like coinjoin. That being said lighting network could scale arbitrarily in theory, but the security properties depend on being able to tx on the main chain in a timely manner. In the case that there is a w…

Well a lightning channel requires 1 on chain transaction to open and 1 to close so it’d cost $12 and for everyone on earth to open and close a single channel would take over 70 years. So it’s not really a scaling solution. And L2 isn’t blockchain anyways, you could conceivably implement lightning with classical assets.

Most people have been txing with a trusted source (e.g. coinbase).

> you could conceivably implement lightning with classical assets.

Not with the same security properties. The idea of building a money transfer service where you simply have many people with liquidity that transfer IOUs instead of the actual money has been around since at least the 8th century: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawala

There was no formal ultimate settlement layer though.

I personally think that we need to continue to investigate ways to push what we trust and eventually have a workable system that actually trusts individual public keys to not double spend on pain of losing their reputation.

Until that happens I'll continue to hold some BTC.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#203

Post by X6S1x6Okd1st »

crumbshot wrote: post #29

Bitcoin and other compute-intensive cryptocurrencies should be banned or taxed so heavily that it's financially infeasible to use them. The amount of energy being wasted (reportedly more than seven nuclear power plants worth) on what is essentially an unproductive project is quite absurd. In a world where we should all be increasingly concerned about the looming climate catastrophe, it's wholly irresponsible for Bitc…

We should have a carbon tax. Cryptocurrency mining isn't so awful if it's funding the development of sustainable, low negative externality energy.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#204

Post by aminozuur »

leet_thow wrote: post #51

I have always been a bitcoin skeptic, but after reading the recent papers by Ark Invest (see ARKK etf) and listening to their CEO Cathie Wood I started adding it to my portfolio.

Unpopular opinion: Cathie Wood seems to buy into whatever hype is currently trending. She does not seem to have a deep understanding as to why some of her holdings will outperform.

However, she's invested in hundreds of companies, and it would be nearly impossible to do so at that point.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#205

Post by AnimalMuppet »

kainaloo wrote: post #125
globular-toast wrote: post #3

Looks like it won't break the $20k threshold again. Back down it goes... I knew this was about to happen again when, just like last time, I heard regular "non-techy" people talk about it at work.

This is probabyl not going to age well. It's very likely that BTC will break 30k in Q1 2021.

"Very likely" because of what? What is your reasoning?

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#206

Post by arcticbull »

georgesC wrote: post #201
arcticbull wrote: post #192

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not changing is nice conceptually but very bad in practice because the real world changes. It doesn’t map. It’s one of those software engineering tendencies to rewrite instead of understand and improve. One side note though. Consider that inflation doesn’t affect the poor as the poor live paycheck to paycheck and wages in the US have kept pace with inflation. The wealthy don’t hold cash, they invest. Even cash tends…

In practice, I'd say "selected" lower level standards aren't changed but built upon. Standard tools also tends to not change much. web protocols, C, C++, php, those are not getting away despite many attempts to reinvent the wheel. Maybe someone will make a better wheel one day, or maybe not, but for me it's nice to have a starting point in the domain of p2p "exchange" that may or may not be adopted as a standard. As…

Each of the languages you called out have changed dramatically to respond to the needs of users, which Bitcoin cannot, has not and will not do. You’re basically advocating for K&R C forever.

Re inflation again, has no impact on poor workers. The amount of value transferred to them in exchange for work is purely social policy and fiscal policy not monetary policy. You can improve workers mobility by supporting unions and minimum wage, not by changing the inflation characteristics of their medium of exchange they don’t get to hold on to anyways. None of your criticisms matter if you’ve invested your fiat.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#207

Post by georgesC »

arcticbull wrote: post #206
georgesC wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In practice, I'd say "selected" lower level standards aren't changed but built upon. Standard tools also tends to not change much. web protocols, C, C++, php, those are not getting away despite many attempts to reinvent the wheel. Maybe someone will make a better wheel one day, or maybe not, but for me it's nice to have a starting point in the domain of p2p "exchange" that may or may not be adopted as a standard. As…

Each of the languages you called out have changed dramatically to respond to the needs of users, which Bitcoin cannot, has not and will not do. You’re basically advocating for K&R C forever. Re inflation again, has no impact on poor workers. The amount of value transferred to them in exchange for work is purely social policy and fiscal policy not monetary policy. You can improve workers mobility by supporting unions…

Bitcoin can change depending on the need of the users, assuming it's something accepted by them, which sounds fair to me.

As for the inflation/fiat it just seems to me that you keep ignoring the possibility of a failure of such system. A failure of such system would for sure have terrible consequences and the poor unlike the wealthier will have harder times. Investing the fiat is a good idea, not something remotely popular in my country alas. Here, saving mostly means saving money at the bank (which devalues over time). No wonder why they feel they're losing purchasing power. People who work shall earn wealth simply put, not diminished wealth if they don't learn about financial tricks from someone they trust.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#208

Post by gruez »

arcticbull wrote: post #175
gruez wrote: post #152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Tether has never been redeemed Why is this relevant when you can withdraw tethers for USD at any participating exchange? Or are you saying that None of the exchanges that support tether (eg. bitfinex) has never fulfilled a withdraw? >It’s the mother of all Ponzi schemes, clearly, and is definitely going to implode in the next big pullback. Sounds like a great way to make a lot of money. Tether is currently trading 1…

Why is it relevant? Really? It’s relevant because as soon as it’s clear the emperor has no clothes you wont be able to redeem it at any exchanges because it’s garbage. > Sounds like a great way to make a lot of money. Tether is currently trading 1:1 with USD (yes, even at exchanges that offer real USD). It should be easy to short-sell a bunch of tether, and buy it back when in collapses. And unlike short-selling stoc…

> Why is it relevant? Really? It’s relevant because as soon as it’s clear the emperor has no clothes you wont be able to redeem it at any exchanges because it’s garbage.

Because if you're worried that they don't have enough real us dollars to back the USDTs that they've printed, being able to directly redeem USDT for USD isn't really going to make a difference.

>All crypto exchanges are rigged casinos. The only way to win is not to play.

That seems like an overly broad statement to make, especially there are a few exchanges that try to be as by-the-books as possible.

>Tether absolutely swings up and down depending on how many people are fleeing into or out of cryptos at any given moment. We’ve seen like +5-7% and -20%. That’s enough to blow away any leveraged position.

Or just don't leverage to the max? Short-selling $1000 worth of USDT with $1000 of USD in reserve and 3x leverage should allow you to withstand most shocks without being forced to liquidate.

>Seriously, who lets you short Tether except for Bitfinex

Kraken, for one.

>and what will they pay you out in, more Tether? They don’t have a bank account. That’s why they invented Tether.

Again, this goes back to my first comment. Are you claiming that bitfinex isn't processing fiat withdraws (eg. wire/ACH transfer to a real bank)?

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#209

Post by cloudinshape »

arcticbull wrote: post #165
cloudinshape wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You take your fiat and you invest it and nothing you say below the first paragraph matters. If only. The problematic part of a fiat system is not that is fiat, but that is in the hands of the government who knows not how to exercise constraint and inflates it at will to "pay" for things, more realistically, to promise to pay for things that if it had to actually pay for it will never be able to afford. > The issue…

> The problematic part of a fiat system is not that is fiat, but that is in the hands of the government who knows not how to exercise constraint and inflates it at will to "pay" for things, more realistically, to promise to pay for things that if it had to actually pay for it will never be able to afford. If economic growth outpaces debt growth then it does not ever have to be paid back. > ...what do you think money…

> If economic growth outpaces debt growth then it does not ever have to be paid back.

Bernie Maddoff said the same thing. He also tried to create a perpetual motion machine.

> Canada has been paying everyone $2000/month this whole time)

Canada has been lending everyone $2000/month this whole time.

> Bitcoin cannot and will not change the wealth gap when it’s overwhelmingly spoken for already.

Again, you don't understand what bitcoin is, nor money apparently. People don't stash money away, not all of it anyways, and specially not when its inflation rate is limited (as in there is not a lot of excess to stash like right now), they use it to buy stuff, to pay for stuff, to invest in stuff, they enjoy it, that is why you want money in the first place! Money is, was and always will be exchanged, which means it changes hands. Odd concept, I know.

> backed on an inflation schedule created and managed not by economists or experts but a narcotics smuggler and a bunch of random GitHub contributors.

Yes, the "experts" managing the "economy" right now are doing such a great job.

> just taking your ball to the BVI isn’t a solution.

At some point, sooner rather than later by the looks of it, it will be the only solution.

> If you really want to change society for the better, run for office, don’t shill magic beans.

Weird advice from someone convinced we'll never have to pay back our debts.

Re: Bitcoin Price Hits All-Time High of $19,786, Topping 2017 Record

#210

Post by arcticbull »

cloudinshape wrote: post #209
arcticbull wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problematic part of a fiat system is not that is fiat, but that is in the hands of the government who knows not how to exercise constraint and inflates it at will to "pay" for things, more realistically, to promise to pay for things that if it had to actually pay for it will never be able to afford. If economic growth outpaces debt growth then it does not ever have to be paid back. > ...what do you think money…

> If economic growth outpaces debt growth then it does not ever have to be paid back. Bernie Maddoff said the same thing. He also tried to create a perpetual motion machine. > Canada has been paying everyone $2000/month this whole time) Canada has been lending everyone $2000/month this whole time. > Bitcoin cannot and will not change the wealth gap when it’s overwhelmingly spoken for already. Again, you don't underst…

> Bernie Maddoff said the same thing. He also tried to create a perpetual motion machine.

Bernie Madoff doesn't get to print his own currency, you see why that's different right? You know who does though? Tether.

> Canada has been lending everyone $2000/month this whole time.

Paying. Lending implies that it has to be returned, it does not.

> Again, you don't understand what bitcoin is, nor money apparently.

Incorrect, I know what money is for and how it works. I don't disagree with anything you said about money. What I disagree with is that inflation matters in that context. It does not. I also see Bitcoin as having been spoken for already, and it has. with a worse wealth distribution than a banana republic, which it has.

> Yes, the "experts" managing the "economy" right now are doing such a great job.

Inflation has been in a tightly controlled 1-2% range in the US since the 1970s. They are. So forgive me for not giving a bunch of un-elected, un-accountable randos with commit privileges and a narcotics trafficker the steering wheel lol.

> At some point, sooner rather than later by the looks of it, it will be the only solution.

Agree to disagree.

> Weird advice from someone convinced we'll never have to pay back our debts.

Who is "our" and why does one have anything to do with the other?

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