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World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

theguardian.com

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Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#201

Post by standardUser »

throwaway2245 wrote: post #86
zed88 wrote: post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The moral dilemma that vegans/vegetarians face is at what size we consider them sentient. Does the same apply to the micro-organism that vegans consume everyday on their salad? Or they are simply not sentient enough because we can't see them with naked eyes?

Vegans don't face any such dilemma. The animal kingdom is quite clearly defined and vegans are pretty consistently defined as not consuming animals or animal products. If you wish to take a more extreme position that considers other forms of life (and almost nobody appears to), that's no longer just veganism: it's something more extreme.

Vegans obviously consume animals. We are all inhabited by by and, through circumstance, kill and consume countless microscopic animals, such as mites.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#203

Post by standardUser »

bitwize wrote: post #195
slothtrop wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nothing's ever enough for vegans. > Would be more interested in seeing more means of producing tasty food without using animals and at reduced costs to the environment. There is increasingly more of that all the time. > On the other hand it just seems like another step into the direction of turning the chickens into optimized food machines. Another step? They aren't getting any more optimized, if anything new availab…

> Nothing's ever enough for vegans. Causing zero harm to animals is enough. It's totally within reach, too. You just have to take responsibility and DO IT.

If you go by the actual definition of what defines an animal, it is literally impossible not to constantly harm animals. Either the rabbits caught in the threshers, the tiny organism we step on, the mites on our face we consume unknowingly.

Even the strictest Jainist can't stop from annihilating an uncountable number of tiny animals that live in, on and around us. (though to their credit, they sure do try).

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#204

Post by kempbellt »

Falling3 wrote: post #182
kempbellt wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The cognitive dissonance is the perfectionist idealism of veganism, and the assumed "ethical superiority" that constantly gets thrown around while taking zero constructive criticism that the people promoting it are in fact, living at complete odds with it. It's like beating your children to try and instill core values that abuse is bad. "Don't hit, Timmy. Hitting is bad! I'm going to spank you to get my point across.…

The OP did not make a good point - they made a Nirvana Fallacy. And your analogy in no way captures that argument anyway.

I interpret OPs point to be one that highlights the already existing Nirvana Fallacy that is the core of idealistic veganism. My analogy adds directly to that point.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#206

Post by grawprog »

0-_-0 wrote: post #163
grawprog wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not though, we're talking about chickens that are for the most part destined to live in a cage and end up on someone's plate.

I'm not sure I understand your point. What's more acceptable and why: 1. Killing an 8 day old chicken embryo 2. Killing a 2 month old human embryo

About the same really.

The whole process of factory farming is brutal. Trying to sugarcoat it by calling them no-death eggs is semantics at best.

It changes nothing about the factory farming system, the number of culled chickens, or the conditions the unculled chickens are kept it.

The only difference it makes is now people don't have to see cute fluffy birds tossed into meat grinders.

It makes people feel better while changing nothing about the fundamental problems of the system.

Kind of like recycling.

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#207

Post by MaxBarraclough »

howlin wrote: post #144
bayindirh wrote: post #125

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I value ethics and empathy deeply but, I don't understand vegans and vegetarians. Their biggest line of defense is "animals are alive and they have feelings and senses, we abuse them for food". That's sadly right. And they implicitly say that "eating plants are OK because, plants are not animals and they're just happen to grow. They don't feel, they don't understand". On the contrary, there's a growing mountain of re…

There are several responses to the "plants have senses" rebuttal: If you care about the well being of plants, you should still prefer to eat plants rather than animals. The trophic level of animals in the food chain necessitates that they will eat more calories of plant matter than would provide calories of food upon being eaten. Secondly, you should look at the sorts of plants being consumed and where they fall in t…

> There would be no evolutionary purpose for plants to develop a sense of suffering if they have no practical use for that sensation.

You've made interesting points, but I think the most important point here isn't one of biology but of moral philosophy: animals presumably outrank plants in terms of moral standing.

Torturing a person is presumably worse than torturing a mosquito. A person has more capacity for pain than a mosquito, and in turn the mosquito has more capacity for pain than does a heap of sand.

I figure plants lie further down the ranking than mosquitoes, for the reasons you've just explained. They're certainly further down than farmyard animals. It would be considerable moral progress to switch from torturing billions of chickens and pigs, to torturing billions of plants (and that's ignoring that a plant in a farm environment is likely 'happier', in its own terms, than a livestock animal).

A vaguely related TED talk on how brains ultimately exist to orchestrate movement, and essentially nothing else: https://youtu.be/7s0CpRfyYp8?t=15

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#208

Post by kgwgk »

romanoderoma wrote: post #185
jononor wrote: post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A million too much in there, I think.

6,000,000,000 (chicks) * 0.03 (weight of a chick in kg at birth) = 180,000,000 kg 180,000,000 kg / 10 (average meat consumption in North and Central Africa) = 18,000,000 people that could eat for a year.

18,000,000 people =/= 18,000,000 million people

(by the way, 30g of chicken at hatching are not 30g of meat)

Re: World's first no-kill eggs go on sale in Berlin (2018)

#209

Post by dzolob »

kempbellt wrote: post #171
dzolob wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, there are whole continents where people are treated as commodities. Working 16 hours a day for one or two dollars while living in unhealthy, unmerciful environments is not drastically different from being breeded for exploitation.

To quote you : > There is a whole lot of citation needed on this reply

Gladly.

I invite you to come to my country and see how farmers/maquila workers live, in what conditions do they work, who they work for and which populations most benefit from this farmers/workers living conditions.

As I said before, empathy is a great quality to cultivate, and so does awareness.

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