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Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

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Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#201
post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There have been efforts to fix this over the years, but this is indeed a problem with the way that the language was designed.

Esperanto has chosen all words to be masculine positive by default, they could have introduced a feminine-only word like French does though, such as mino .

Esperanto didn't choose anything, it being a language not a person. Zamenhof made a choice, but even he considered the alternatives back in the 1880s, albeit that he decided in the end that a balanced gender mechanism that had the masculine as a marked form was too foreign a concept to speakers of existing languages with unmarked and marked masculines, such as English.

In the more than a century and a quarter since, there have been efforts to fix this, as I said. Several of them are over four decades old at this point.

Use of the prefix "ge-" in the singular (giving "patro" for father, "patrino" for mother, and "gepatro" for parent of unspecified gender) goes back to the 1980s. This has in the decades since even that become mainstream enough that in the last 10 to 15 years "gepatro" is now in Esperanto dictionaries such as Wells's 2010 dictionary. Indeed, it made it into the Plena Ilustrita Vortaro by 2002.

* https://vortaro.net#gepatro_kd

The infix "-iĉ-" was another product of the 1970s/1980s. This gives "patro" for parent of unspecified gender, "patriĉo" for father, and "patrino" for mother. It's less mainstream than singular "ge-", but it was popular enough that Jorge Camacho used it in 1991. It's a more logical and consistent system than singular "ge-", but I suspect that resistance to it is partly rooted in the fact that the L1 languages of "Esperantistoj" do not in the majority have unmarked gender-neutrals and marked masculines for similar words. The claim is that it reinterprets a large corpus of existing past Esperanto works, but a counter to that claim is that similar things are currently happening with words like "actor" in English without similar objections.

And, finally, Ido reformed this all the way back in 1907. It went the marked masculine route (of Esperanto's "-iĉ-") with the infix "-ul-".

Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see any young people choosing to learn a language which has such problems with gender - when a learner has to deal with this in the first lesson. Assuming male as the default seems to me to be increasingly evolving out of natural languages. Agreeing a reform among Esperanto-speakers seems impossible, given that many are attached to its historical roots.

It is obvious Zamenhof artificially selected the vocabulary to equate grammatical and natural genders. This artificial selection also applied to all words being positive by default: to say bad, you need to say ungood instead.

Yes - "implicit assocation tests" for cognitive bias work on exactly this principle: identifying when 'male' follows the same process as 'good'.

Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of a person, yes. Of a language, I think the intention is clear. Note that this is syntactically ambiguous – a lovely feature of English. Try writing a sentence that isn't.

Syntactic ambiguity is a feature of human languages, period. Nothing is uniquely English about it.

It's a feature of many, but not all.

Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems like it would be exactly analogous to the formation of pidgins, which takes one generation, not centuries. Also, if I think back to high school I would challenge the idea that every speaker of modern English has "no problems" reading 200-year-old texts.

People have been learning foreign languages in school without developing a pidgin for a long time now. Pidgin formation seems much more likely if the language acquisition is not as part of formal training, but from an informal need to communicate like for trade.

Because foreign languages have a community of native speakers whose way of speaking is ultimately authoritative.

Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#206
post #9

When I tried it just for a few days, I was surprised how easy it was to learn. It was much easier to learn than English. On the other hand so many people already know English vocabulary that just having regular spelling and simple grammar could work. Mark Twain already suggested it: "A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling: For example, in Year 1 that useless letter 'c' would be dropped to be replased either b…

I know its funny. But coming from a language where words are pronounced as written, English could've been simpler.

Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Zamenhof’s optimism isn’t as universally admired as you suggest. First of all, the Yugoslav wars stand as bloody proof that even if neighbors can understand each other and speak more or less the same language, they can just find something else to fight over. Secondly, Zamenhof was still writing from an Enlightenment-era framework that saw language diversity as a problem, something to systematize away. In our modern e…

> Zamenhof’s optimism isn’t as universally admired as you suggest. Where did I say say his optimism was universally admired? I think I made it clear that I admire his optimism, and think it worthy of admiration :-) > some of Zamenhof’s views can be shocking today. That's fine, having admiration for his work and those views of his that I feel have merit don't mean I need to accept absolutely everything the man believe…

> Where did I say say his optimism was universally admired?

My mistake. I wished to say that he isn’t so universally admirable. That is, what you see as constructive in his ideals and aspirations, other people today might find destructive.

> That may well be true, but this feels like an ad-hominem argument

Well, human beings are social animals, so ad hominem arguments are perfectly valid here. If something feels cringe to a large group of people (even to most of those who one would have expected to be sympathetic), then it can fairly be called cringe.

Also, these idealistic, Zamenhof-lauding green-star-flag-waving world-peace types were infamous for often having the least ability to actually converse in Esperanto. They would be visible at congresses, but in a way they were least involved in the actual Esperanto community. You'll also find plenty of arguments that those people actually hold Esperanto back from appealing to outsiders and getting more people involved.

Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#208
post #102
post #9

When I tried it just for a few days, I was surprised how easy it was to learn. It was much easier to learn than English. On the other hand so many people already know English vocabulary that just having regular spelling and simple grammar could work. Mark Twain already suggested it: "A Plan for the Improvement of English Spelling: For example, in Year 1 that useless letter 'c' would be dropped to be replased either b…

That reminds me of this old joke [1]: > The European Union commissioners have announced that agreement has been reached to adopt English as the preferred language for European communications, rather than German, which was the other possibility. > As part of the negotiations, the British and American government conceded that English spelling had some room for improvement. Consequently, they have adopted a five-year ph…

Theodore Roosevelt tried to impose simplified spelling on the Government Printing Office. Congress refused to fund any such printing, and TR's innovation took effect.

Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I've always wanted to learn a language, but was frustrated by all the grammar irregularities and other barriers to entry. English has that in spades, but it wasn't a problem as you don't have to worry about that with your first language. Esperanto was the first language I've made any real progress with. Spanish is considered a fairly easy language for English speakers to learn, but I knew fairly little after 3…

It's probable that Esperanto speakers speak more clearly because: a) that's the purpose of speaking the language, and, b) there are few conversations between two fully fluent speakers; even if you are fluent, you can't expect your conversation partner to be. Spanish does have phonetic spelling, but is also likely to have more elision in every-day speech. Native speakers know and use what is understood without needing…

I can understand some Esperanto videos where the speaker is extremely fluent and talking very fast. If I could slow down the videos, I could transcribe almost the full thing even if I don't know all the vocabulary. That is impressive to me. There are a lot of languages that just sound like gibberish to me to the point that I can't even make out the sounds that well.

Re: Can Esperanto Make a Comeback? (2015)

#210
post #166
post #10

Comeback? Has it ever been more than a niche curiosity? It's more like translation tools will make a comeback. Already have. They've gotten so good, you don't even need to learn a new language to learn something that's only available in English (or other languages). Incidentally, this was a major reason I learned English. There was so much more information available back in the early 00's that I just had to do it. Ro…

They've gotten so good, you don't even need to learn a new language to learn something that's only available in English It's a mixed bag really. Japanese is still too foreign for Google Translate to interpret properly outside of common phrases.

I use it everyday, and actually Japanese to English is pretty good in Google translate. Japanese to French was abysmally bad a few years back, but now it became acceptable.

The opposite translations are not bad per-se, but the sentences are always non-natural because all the context and articles that are implicit in Japanese are kept.

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