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Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

npr.org

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Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#201

Post by XCSme »

DenisM wrote: post #160
XCSme wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's what he tried to say, if you recycle paper the carbon gets somehow released. But, in theory, the recycled paper will still come out as paper, thus carbon will still be there.

> in theory, the recycled paper will still come out as paper, thus carbon will still be there. If paper never gets recycled it will continue accumulating in the landfill at a fast pace, so more carbon gets trapped over time. If paper gets recycled the amount of captured carbon will be that trapped in the paper currently circulating. Even if some paper gets eventually trashed, it will not be at the same rate. Recyclin…

But what about the trees cut down to make new paper? As more new paper is needed if less is recycled.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#202

Post by neltnerb »

SahAssar wrote: post #193
neltnerb wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Plastic separation is tricky, they tend to have similar physical properties so you end up relying on small density differences or optical properties or computer vision which is obviously not so great. I think most places it's still more cost effective to do it by hand. Metals are easy to separate from one another, they tend to have substantially different densities and electrical properties. Aluminum for instance is…

So what you're saying is that separating glass, cardboard, paper, compost, metal (which we can separate from one another if it is just metal by the methods you described) is valuable, but the all plastic can go in the "general" type, right? Glass, cardboard, paper and compost are either recyclable or reusable, metal is recyclable when sorted correctly, and plastics are pretty much a no-go as the parent article sugges…

Except by burning it as fuel, yes, that's basically what I'm saying. I don't think this would be news to a material scientist trained since the 90s, but marketing is strong.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#203

Post by SahAssar »

neltnerb wrote: post #202
SahAssar wrote: post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So what you're saying is that separating glass, cardboard, paper, compost, metal (which we can separate from one another if it is just metal by the methods you described) is valuable, but the all plastic can go in the "general" type, right? Glass, cardboard, paper and compost are either recyclable or reusable, metal is recyclable when sorted correctly, and plastics are pretty much a no-go as the parent article sugges…

Except by burning it as fuel, yes, that's basically what I'm saying. I don't think this would be news to a material scientist trained since the 90s, but marketing is strong.

I think some people take the "plastic recycling is not viable" to mean that all recycling is not a thing, so I wanted to make sure I didn't misunderstand you about things like glass, cardboard, paper, metal and so on.

I think it's even harder to separate those concepts if you throw all recycling in the same bin.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#204

Post by macinjosh »

fsflover wrote: post #198
macinjosh wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. Too many people see the government’s role to be their parent and protect them from every bad thing in the world. Grow up folks. If everyone who lied for their own gain were to be sent to prison we’d have no politicians left in government. Come to think of it we would all probably be in jail at some point. Maybe just don’t believe everything you hear.

But if you have to do everything yourself, check everything in the world yourself, defend yourself, why on earth do you need government at all? I think those people rightfully expect that from the government, because no one can be aware of every single thing.

“why on earth do you need government at all?”

Bingo. You don’t.

A government can’t protect you from everything either and in fact in many cases causes more problems for people. Just 2 examples of an endless number:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuskegee_Syphilis_Study

https://reason.com/2020/09/10/a-nebraska-county-took-his-250...

Life is a risk. Nothing can change that.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#205

Post by neltnerb »

SahAssar wrote: post #203
neltnerb wrote: post #202

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except by burning it as fuel, yes, that's basically what I'm saying. I don't think this would be news to a material scientist trained since the 90s, but marketing is strong.

I think some people take the "plastic recycling is not viable" to mean that all recycling is not a thing, so I wanted to make sure I didn't misunderstand you about things like glass, cardboard, paper, metal and so on. I think it's even harder to separate those concepts if you throw all recycling in the same bin.

I think the point of the NPR piece is that the recycling symbols started intentionally and have continued to be for marketing.

I don't think it's viable to recycle paper products meaningfully, but they're also made from farmed trees and burn so I don't object overmuch to them. Worst case they sequester carbon...

Glass is tricky and probably cheaper to make fresh right now but it's not that big a difference to recycle it. You'd only need a marginal incentive, or for sand to somehow become more expensive.

Metal is really worth recycling economically, energetically, and technically. Glass is worth keeping separate since it can be recycled pretty easily. Paper products frankly just burn em as biofuels.

Plastics... well... I just kind of wish they didn't exist except for special applications where their unique properties were necessary. They are space age, high performance, specialty materials and we use them like they're paper cups. Use PTFE for specialty tubing, great. Use rubber tires for cars, great.

Use plastics where the properties matter. Don't use it for cups... it's just so sad...

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#206

Post by DenisM »

XCSme wrote: post #201
DenisM wrote: post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> in theory, the recycled paper will still come out as paper, thus carbon will still be there. If paper never gets recycled it will continue accumulating in the landfill at a fast pace, so more carbon gets trapped over time. If paper gets recycled the amount of captured carbon will be that trapped in the paper currently circulating. Even if some paper gets eventually trashed, it will not be at the same rate. Recyclin…

But what about the trees cut down to make new paper? As more new paper is needed if less is recycled.

That's the whole point of carbon sequestration: grow a tree, cut it down, bury it, grow a new tree in the same place.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#207

Post by neltnerb »

regularfry wrote: post #112
neltnerb wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, plastic degrades each time it is recycled. They knew that, every materials scientist knew that, and it is just not possible to fully reclaim recycled plastic. What really pisses me off is the use of the recycling number as marketing. Which is still ongoing and being modernized. Leave a complaint card any time you see compostable plastic being used in a city that doesn't have specialized industrial composting plan…

It depends if fully reclaiming it as plastic is the goal. That's the current model, but there are other routes available. Two options that don't quite work yet (but have moderately promising potential) are either to break the plastic down to useful precursors with enzymes, or pyrolise it down to biochar. To my knowledge, the enzyme approach has shown a modicum of promise in labs but is still impractical, while making…

So I am largely complaining about how confusing it is. Intentionally so.

(a) no, most plastics won't get broken down to precursors with enzymes. a few it will work with, like that company recovering resins from carbon fiber. or PLA even theoretically. but most of them are a free radical polymerization that I just don't think you're going to be able to meaningfully reverse.

(b) making biochar sounds fine. better than the landfill. I'd be most worried about chemicals like fluorine and sulfur making it into the soil.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#208

Post by XCSme »

DenisM wrote: post #206
XCSme wrote: post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But what about the trees cut down to make new paper? As more new paper is needed if less is recycled.

That's the whole point of carbon sequestration: grow a tree, cut it down, bury it, grow a new tree in the same place.

Assuming that new trees will indeed be planted.

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#209

Post by MayeulC »

SahAssar wrote: post #102
neltnerb wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Metal and plastic are super easy to separate by density or by electrical conductivity. Batteries are considered hazardous waste and have to be disposed of separately, similarly for old electronics or CFL bulbs that contain mercury. But commingled recycling was one of the most predictably stupid moves in the area of environmentalism I've seen in a long time (well, prior to 2016 anyway), when I heard my city was moving…

> Metal and plastic are super easy to separate by density or by electrical conductivity Yeah, what I meant by better segmentation is not to separate them from each other (we do that) but rather by type. Some plastics are easier to recycle than others and I don't know if metals can be easily and automatically sorted from each other.

Well, some are magnetic, some are not, that's just one way to differentiate them.

Here are a couple videos I know (in French) from consignesdetri.fr:

https://youtu.be/KgW1TP909NU?t=36 (you can see the magnetic belt at that timestamp)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vMJ-pDG_afk For an aluminium can. They mention doing the same with eddy currents [1] [2]

I also recall seeing a big, spiky magnetic roller in some video instead of a magnetic belt, so implementation details can vary, but this seems to be pretty standard stuff.

Less standard is the plastic-sorting equipment, though that can be achieved with hyperspectral cameras and the like (read: expensive). In some places, there are separate bins for colored and transparent glass. Some facilities use detectors instead.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current_separator

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eddy_current#Repulsive_effects...

Re: Oil Companies Touted Recycling to Sell More Plastic

#210

Post by anigbrowl »

SahAssar wrote: post #96
anigbrowl wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you fill in the rest of the picture? How many different receptacles do you have to put out on the street?

I live in an apartment complex, so we have different receptacles for each. But for single-family homes there are usually segmented so you have different subsections for each like this: https://www.rambo.se/wp-content/uploads/2016/12/fyrfackskrl-... When I lived in my last apartment I carried the glass/plastic/paper/cardboard and so on a block over to a public recycling station, so that was a lot less convenient but I…

I was guessing you lived in an apartment complex but am pleasantly surprised by the sensible solution for single family homes. Thanks for sharing.
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