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The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

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201–209 of 209 posts

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#201
post #193

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Americans engineered many places to be car dependent when it didn't have to. No, Americans responded to the preference of many of us for more freedom and less crowded places to live, by producing them. You don't get to decide for other people what a proper "balance" is or for whom cars are a "necessity".

That is my point. Civic leaders DID decide how Americans would live for the next few generations. It is hard to undo even if our children want to go back to the traditional village which had worked for centuries.

If you think the living arrangements of everyone in America were decided by "civic leaders", you need to get around more.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#202
post #7

> But there is also the possibility of a worst case that he describes in a chapter titled “Catastrophe.” Suppose that climate change has created an uninhabitable equator. The aging advanced nations cannot sustain their deficit-financed prosperity. The population of Africa continues its rapid growth, resulting in a mass migration into Europe that meets increasing resistance. Reading this reminded me a bit of reading t…

> Sure it sometimes takes a few life times, but we’ve never moved permanently backwards before Playing devil's advocate here: perhaps that's because we always think of things that we're doing now as "right"? For instance there are societies in history that were open to some sexual relationships that we are not (mainly the ones involving minors or incest). At times in european history, animals were tried for crimes si…

Well, your example kind of proves my point as society has improved by not thinking incest is great.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#203
post #7

> But there is also the possibility of a worst case that he describes in a chapter titled “Catastrophe.” Suppose that climate change has created an uninhabitable equator. The aging advanced nations cannot sustain their deficit-financed prosperity. The population of Africa continues its rapid growth, resulting in a mass migration into Europe that meets increasing resistance. Reading this reminded me a bit of reading t…

We've also never had access to the kind of world-changing power we have now. Rome couldn't cause nuclear winter or irreversible climate change.

Rome quite literally wiped entire civilisations off the map. Sure they didn’t use nukesc but what’s the difference when everyone in your culture dies?

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree in that I have major problems with the article, but disagree that somehow we are in this period of great innovation. I think this kind of argument always goes down two paths. First, someone says "things are terrible right now and it's the end." Then someone else says "no it isn't here's why things are actually great!" Sure we have access to more knowledge than ever - but have we seen the effects of such? Just…

> Sure we have access to more knowledge than ever - but have we seen the effects of such? yeah this the disruption I mentioned. Our society is going to change because mass communication. Not all of that change is going to be good. All of that change is going to be resisted. The same was true for all changes in society, from feudalism to parliamentarianism to democracy, including electricity and steam power. > Technol…

I don't think FaceTime has the societal impact you think it does. it's just the evolution of the phone - very nice, but doesn't solve our real challenges. When you think about it - the computer itself wasn't an insane concept since the 1950s. The technology evolved with major improvements much like anything else, like cars, planes, boats, etc, but the theory behind it pretty much remained the same. Once the right materials and manufacturing of chips were figured out, is it really much of a jump to guess we'd have amazing computers today?

And without the Soviet Union around, it's much harder to solve the challenges we have because there isn't a big bad. The current conservative talking points of China do not carry the same weight because the entire nation's stock portfolios are reliant on cheap chinese factories. There is a general schizophrenia with our world today. Connected by so many things - email, instagram, video chat, cell phones, facebook. And yet depression is very high. People seem far more distant. We need more manufacturing here - but wal-mart and amazon dominate the retail market with cheap chinese goods and Americans can't get enough. Google gives us vast knowledge - and yet looking at tests from the 70s, most are far, far harder. Schools have gotten easier. Anti-vax has a powerful voice. I think technology contributes to this, but all in all I think it's not the sole cause.

> I get that. But technologists tend to get clued-up about everything else before airing their opinions. For some reason, Art Critics especially, intellectuals seem to think it's OK for them to know everything about 19th century impressionism and nothing about Internet Protocol and still have a valid opinion about 21st century Art.

I don't think knowing about IP has anything to do with one's ability to judge art. It's a slippery slope, or rather absurd, because art debates always go down the rabbit hole of "what is art"

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#205
post #140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You may want to refresh your knowledge of American history. All those things you flag have always existed. It’s no different now. History tends to get highly filtered and very little attention is paid to the incredibly bumpy road those times represent.

Yes, yes, ignore the catastrophic consequences of climate change and the political unrest that we're already seeing because of it. "We've had all this before, it's fine". Oh fuck off.

We've banned this account for repeatedly breaking the site guidelines. If you don't want to be banned, you're welcome to read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and email hn@ycombinator.com and give us reason to believe that you'll follow the rules in the future.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#206

This is a fascinating discussion because it hits directly at a topic that civilization-after-civilization has faced throughout history: are we able to reasonably assess whether we are continuing towards growth and progress or stagnation and extinction? Frankly, the historical record is not encouraging. Usually, when this topic comes up people chime in with easy takeaways like "people have always complained about this…

It is interesting to note that if you read Roman generals' letters from the fourth/fifth centuries AD, they seem like they have no idea that their civilization is in the late stages of decline, something totally easy for us to recognize millennia later. It's weird and uncanny, and kind of concerning given contemporary circumstances

Do you have any references for these letters ? It would be very interesting to read through them.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an ongoing rhetoric in Russia and much of Eastern Europe. Western issues like gay marriage, feminism, overconsumption, politically-correct language and identity politics are skillfully used by nationalistically-oriented populists to paint a decadent image of the West.

Feminism is a western issue? Do Russians not believe in things like equal pay, all jobs being open to women, fair divorce settlements, protection from physical abuse, access to family planning? (Honest question).

Yes and no. Theoretically domestic violence is bad. Practically, it is more prevalent then in west and often seen as dirty familly issue. Local preacher and familly will focus on forgiving, make familly together and that kids need dad.

Likewise, equal pay sure, but dont you dare to point out when it is not. Naturally woman is the one expected to primart focus on kids and home, guy is more likely to be promoted of course. It is not seen as "not a woman place" to be leader - but it is happening less then incapable guy being promoted. Basically, there is more sexism but less hostility.

Jobs are not closed to women, but people perceive you weird putside of proper gender bounds and talk about it openly. The different expectations of boys and girls are in the open too. You wont find male teachers much, super rare.

Divorces seem fair money wise, except really guy will get less access to kids. But no alimony, she is expected to work. Access to familly planning is good.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Sure we have access to more knowledge than ever - but have we seen the effects of such? yeah this the disruption I mentioned. Our society is going to change because mass communication. Not all of that change is going to be good. All of that change is going to be resisted. The same was true for all changes in society, from feudalism to parliamentarianism to democracy, including electricity and steam power. > Technol…

I don't think FaceTime has the societal impact you think it does. it's just the evolution of the phone - very nice, but doesn't solve our real challenges. When you think about it - the computer itself wasn't an insane concept since the 1950s. The technology evolved with major improvements much like anything else, like cars, planes, boats, etc, but the theory behind it pretty much remained the same. Once the right mat…

> just an evolution of the phone

My go-to example for this is the Cambodian tuk-tuk driver taking a YouTube English lesson while waiting for a fare. This is radical change. The democratisation of knowledge is huge. And it has unwanted side-effects: everyone does their own "research" now, and then we have to un-democratise some knowledge so that lies don't get passed off as truth. It's going to take us a couple of generations to work out how allowing everyone to publish anything they like, and read anything they want, is actually going to work in a sane society.

> ... rabbit hole of "what is art"

Agreed :)

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#209

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have given up on getting a good story out of emergent gameplay and sandbox-y games. Bioshock 1 & 2 is about as good as it's going to get with regards to producing a good story that can go multiple ways. Those games moved me like very few songs or books ever did.

Dwarf fortress is a pretty good stochastic story generator, it's head and shoulders above anything else in that vein. But yeah, those kinds of stories will never really be quite as focused or meaningful as human-crafted narrative

I've read some terrible narratives written by humans, too ;)
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