Live data from Hacker News

Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

scientificamerican.com

201–210 of 211 posts

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#201
post #3

First thing that came to my mind was.. "Guys, guys, Galileo wasn't actually cancelled. He just found out that free speech has consequences." @KonstantinKisin Good luck!

He wouldn’t be the first academic in history to get the facts right and the delivery wrong.

Eric Weinstein talks about the DISC - Distributed Idea Suppression Complex.

I had a friend get tenure at a university, and her stories added fuel to the fire in my mind that the DISC is very real, and everywhere.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#202
post #133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>legitimacy crisis You've hit the nail on the head here. These past few years I've felt like every major institution has been in a credibility crisis. Government, news, universities, the whole thing is falling apart. One hypothesis I'm starting to believe was coined by Eric Weinstein as the Embedded Growth Obligation (EGO). The basic idea is we had a few historically unique decades post WWII of exponential growth, an…

Yes, I'm familiar with this idea, and I think it really does get close to one of the roots of the problem. I hope more people start listening carefully to individuals like Mr. Weinstein before it's too late to change course. I don't always agree with everything he says on other issues, but we are lucky to have him in a position where he's afforded the right to speak freely. It's a shameful embarrassment to the state…

My problem with Weinstein and his ilk is that I don't see them offering solutions, they just yell "distrust, distrust, distrust" and not much creative and serious thinking about solutions. Meanwhile long time economists, labour and political activists (voluntarists and america-style libertarians, statist-socialists and classical neoliberals and a bunch of other flavors), artist/sacademics across the board and others have been saying "distrust these people for these reasons and do this to fix it" for decades and no-one seems to care because it goes against their politics, while claiming to not have politics because they are too smart and cynical for that.

The "Embedded Growth Hypothesis" for example has been a thing that socialists, eco activists and even austrian economics and classical keynesians (if that's a proper term, I mean Keynesians who believe that debt is a problem and you should pay it back and not rely on MMT to pay it back via inflation) have been trying to push for a long time. But they also offer solutions which are compatible with an open society (at least the ones moderate enough to become mainstream), they don't just claim the current system is corrupt.

It's fine to just criticize without offering solutions, but if you are gonna claim "everyones distrustworthy" you should back things up more.

---

Oh, and Weinstein in particular has been using his right to speak freely for decades and continues to use it about being silenced. Now he just has a billionaire backer whose politics align with what he's saying to amplify him.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Were all of them bad science? (The first two were clearly so, but I'm not sure about the last ones.) Because if so, it's easy to look a bit more and find completely wrong conclusions taken from good science too. But anyway, all of those were mainstream at some time. The point is that yielding to experts is anti-science. The fact that your experts work in a research lab instead of a church makes little difference here…

Is it possible for non-experts to verify science in most fields? It's possible and important for other experts to verify, but research is very hard to contextualize and verify without being or becoming an expert.

> Is it possible for non-experts to verify science in most fields?

If they don't know a thing about statistics and science methodology, no it's not. If they do know those, settled research with real impact is not that hard to verify (that's why it's settled), verifying science without impact is not important, and unsettled science shouldn't get a lot of trust anyway.

That would be a good subject for an article with that same title. But for the current article, the question is not really relevant.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#204
post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Propaganda has always been a problem, and it's hard to quantify if it's actually worse now or merely different. I think that part of what makes it both different and worse now is the way that, thanks to automatic personalisation of content, what feels like honest intellectual inquiry will be met with automated replies that drive us deeper in the direction of our beliefs (inadvertently; they optimise for engagement,…

Is there any way to realistically and gradually reduce the prevalence and thickness of these filter bubbles, so that people can be encouraged to practice critical thinking in a sustainable way? Will this have to necessarily be a governmental effort, or can there be business value in such practices? Will there ever be sufficient incentives for any government to work on this? Sorry for all the questions, I'm just think…

> Is there any way to realistically and gradually reduce the prevalence and thickness of these filter bubbles, so that people can be encouraged to practice critical thinking in a sustainable way? Will this have to necessarily be a governmental effort, or can there be business value in such practices? Will there ever be sufficient incentives for any government to work on this?

The problem that I see is that filter bubbles keep people happy, so the effort to fix it has to be an effort that's going to make people unhappy—and what business or democratic government is going to do that? To me, it's like being a teacher (my profession); there are ample studies that show that teaching effectiveness is in many ways inversely correlated with student satisfaction (because true learning is often uncomfortable), and yet the incentives for teachers are all in the direction of encouraging student satisfaction even when everyone knows it can be at the expense of learning.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#205

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's just wrong. Is Japan, or Korea, or Germany needlessly locked down to "prioritize a minority population"? No. Those economies are largely open now. The US isn't making the wrong decision about prioritizing hard choices, it's simply MAKING THE WRONG CHOICES . This was a largely solvable problem. We just failed.

The question isn't what we should have done, that's easy. What should we do now?

Exactly the same things! There's no too late with a virus, the same things work to treat it no matter what the infection counts are.

Stay home. If you can't stay home, wear a mask and stay outside. Don't travel. Get tested regularly if you can't meet these rules. Follow the instructions of the scientists we've all been ignoring. Vote for people who will (or against those who won't).

Your argument seems to be of the form "Well, we fucked up, but it's too late now so we might as well open up." That's just not true. We can still fix this and save tens or hundreds of thousands of lives.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#206

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The question isn't what we should have done, that's easy. What should we do now?

Exactly the same things! There's no too late with a virus, the same things work to treat it no matter what the infection counts are. Stay home. If you can't stay home, wear a mask and stay outside. Don't travel. Get tested regularly if you can't meet these rules. Follow the instructions of the scientists we've all been ignoring. Vote for people who will (or against those who won't). Your argument seems to be of the f…

Seems a bit oversimplified because you need to lockdown for the next 1.5 years.

You need to exert the police force against peaceful protestors.

All while sacrificing the mental and physical health of the 99.5%.

Here's a question, why does the mental and physical health of the 99.5% take lower priority than the 0.5% oldest and most obese people?

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#207
post #201

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He wouldn’t be the first academic in history to get the facts right and the delivery wrong.

Eric Weinstein talks about the DISC - Distributed Idea Suppression Complex. I had a friend get tenure at a university, and her stories added fuel to the fire in my mind that the DISC is very real, and everywhere .

One man’s DISC is another’s memetic immune system.

Communicating new ideas is hard, and the burden is carried exclusively by the originator of the idea.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#208

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't follow the part about polytheism. I would say, if anything, polytheism is a hindrance to the development of science. For one, the capriciousness of the gods makes nature arbitrary and unpredictable. FWIW, Stanley Jaki argues something quite different to what you've written in "Science and Creation" and "The Road of Science and the Ways of God". P.S. A quick search doesn't bring up any noteworthy Georg Feuerbach…

https://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/feuerbach/works/e... George, my mistake. (Polytheism brings up the relevant passage starting with Jews) The philosophers did not follow the gods, they believed in the divinity of reason. If anything, and consistent with the Scientific Revolution, the confidence in the self-certainty of reason permitted the imagination to expand “beyond” the natural, to examine it, to know it…

Oh, Ludwig Feuerbach.

If I restrict myself to the topic at hand, then I have to say I don't see how he manages to construe the doctrine of creatio ex nihilo (CEN) as intrinsically opposed to contemplation or speculative knowledge—science that seeks knowledge for its own sake and not merely to master nature—or how he construes it as essentially utilitarian. I have a suspicion that this is a corollary of his position that God is merely a projection of Man, but my understanding is that this position is a consequence of Kantian skepticism and the resulting agnosticism. If you can't know things in themselves, then all you have left is science as mastery of nature.

One difficulty with the claim that somehow CEN is intrinsically opposed to theory is the failure to explain the entire Christian intellectual tradition. Since we're talking about science specifically, it becomes impossible to explain the enormous successes of the sciences in the West and historically the relative poverty of their success in every other civilization. While the stirrings of science occurred in a number of civilizations—and we should give them their due—and while the Greeks may be argued to be the most successful of the bunch, nowhere but the West, whatever its faults, do we see the flourishing of a sustained and vibrant scientific culture. If we take a broader and classical view of science, one embraced by the Greeks, to include any systematic body of knowledge, then this period of flourishing extends far into the centuries preceding the rise of modern science and includes the intellectually vibrant Middle Ages. Indeed, without the Middle Ages, it is difficult to imagine how modern science could have emerged in the first place. Without arguing that this could only have happened in the West (that is Jaki's position, as far as I understand it), it suffices to note that it did happen in the West and it did so in a culture that embraced CEN.

The fact that neither Jewish civilization, nor Islamic civilization for that matter, ever truly had a sustained and sophisticated philosophical or scientific culture does not support Feuerbach's thesis. Again, his claim is that CEN is intrinsically opposed to theoretical endeavors (which includes philosophy). But all I need to show is one example of where CEN did not stifle science.

Here I would add that one thing that stifled science in the Islamic world is not CEN, but the belief that Allah is essentially pure will, and a pure will that can contradict itself. Accepting that kind of creator can only discourage speculative science. Here, we can appeal to Feuerbach's own words when he says that the origin of a thing tells us about that thing. A world created by a self-contradicting creator doesn't inspire much confidence in the intelligibility of what he's created.

In stark contrast, Christianity (certainly Catholic Christianity) conceives of the world as utterly intelligible. To put it somewhat poetically, the world is divine thought or divine word and therefore intelligible and knowable through and through (we have to note both the immanence and transcendence of God to avoid both pantheism and deism). When John says "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.", the original Greek uses the word "λόγος" for word. Anyone familiar with Greek knows that the English translation of λόγος is utterly inadequate to express its meaning (the Latin "verbum" does a better job). In Exodus, when Moses asks God who he should say has sent him, God responds with "I Am" (or "Ehyeh", from which we get Yahweh). God is revealing himself as Being itself and in revealing himself is making himself known. So God himself is intelligible and therefore Being is intelligible. (Aristotelian metaphysics dovetails nicely because while Aristotle managed to provide us with a rich and robust theory of being, he stops short of discovering the act or principle of existence which Gilson argues was stifled by pagan eternalism. We have to wait for Avicenna for that to happen, later refined by Averroes and finally Aquinas.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#209
post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Personally, as a scientist, I am comforted that there are enough others out there who doubt the entire notion of a scientific establishment that the population should "trust" to make decisions without oversight. I'm not sure what you're actually proposing, but it sounds dangerously close to "pilots have been in control of airplanes for decades, and they've caused so many crashes, so maybe it's time to try people wh…

I realize HN sperdos have a hard time with this concept sometimes, but MUH SCIENCE isn't how we make decisions as a society, anywhere, ever. Leadership is decision under uncertainty. The best thing most scientists can do for leadership is tell them the best guess and estimates of how big the uncertainties are. Recent events have shown how unbelievably shitty these guesses were, and, frankly, continue to be; and as fa…

> I realize HN sperdos have a hard time with this concept sometimes

Hey please don't do that here. Crotchety contrarianism needn't be a bad thing but the HN guidelines say "don't be snarky" for a reason, and there are other guidelines too: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.

Many of your comments are clearly based on knowledge, which we cut a lot of slack for, but if you would make our lives a little easier I'd appreciate it. This comment would be just fine if it started with the "Leadership is" sentence. "Gasbag" is name-calling but as part of a backhanded compliment, no big deal; we're not sticklers.

Re: Science and scientific expertise are more important than ever

#210
post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is there any way to realistically and gradually reduce the prevalence and thickness of these filter bubbles, so that people can be encouraged to practice critical thinking in a sustainable way? Will this have to necessarily be a governmental effort, or can there be business value in such practices? Will there ever be sufficient incentives for any government to work on this? Sorry for all the questions, I'm just think…

> Is there any way to realistically and gradually reduce the prevalence and thickness of these filter bubbles, so that people can be encouraged to practice critical thinking in a sustainable way? Will this have to necessarily be a governmental effort, or can there be business value in such practices? Will there ever be sufficient incentives for any government to work on this? The problem that I see is that filter bub…

I see, that makes sense. Kind of a "eat your vegetables" type of situation.

I really hope we can learn and get to a better place from here, but I'm not holding my breath. The way I see it, there's a good chance that the world will only continue to become increasingly more authoritarian and dictatorial. Because in a world filled with more and more widespread filter bubbles and entrenched divides, authoritarianism and dictatorships logically become the optimal solution to get society to cooperate and function.

It saddens me to think about it.

Post reply on HN