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Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

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Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#201

Post by vkou »

mchusma wrote: post #95

“If a forest fire breaks out, there is no time for debate. Action is needed. The governor could declare an emergency and respond accordingly. But in the case of a pandemic, which lasts month after month, the governor cannot rely on emergency powers indefinitely,” Roggensack wrote for the majority. Refreshing to see some pressure for democracy to resume.

So, an undemocratically appointed partisan official nullifies legislature passed by democratically elected officials, and that is called a victory for democracy?

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#202

Post by hanging »

bosswipe wrote: post #172
cryptonector wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nonsense. You say that as if the 50 States' legislatures have been wiped out by covid-19 and can't convene (or be convened, as the case may be) and pass laws. In the U.S. executive orders simply don't and can't have the force of law without the support of statutory law, not relative to civilians[0]. If you want a law, it needs to be passed as a statute by the appropriate legislature and must become law via all the us…

Wisconsin's legislature passed a law that gives the Department of Health the authority to issue orders in the face of a public health emergency. It is because of extreme partisanship that the extremely partisan Wisconsin court has now struck down that law in a blatant act of judicial activism to get the political result they wanted.

  extremely partisan Wisconsin court has now struck down that law in a blatant act of judicial activism
"Extreme partisanship" is more evident in your complaint about a "striking down" that didn't happen of a "law" that doesn't exist. The Court upheld existing law and struck down executive actions that violated it.

By the way, Supreme Court justices here in Wisconsin are elected on statewide ballots, not nominated for life like Federal judges. Your basis for calling them "extremely partisan" is, what, exactly?

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#203

Post by nick_kline »

rayiner wrote: post #163
asabjorn wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

3,3k has so far died in Sweden and the population is 10 million. I believe 22k has died out of 8.3m in NYC, so NYC seems clearly worse. The strategy was to face more infections short term in favor of quick herd immunity so it’s actually a very positive sign for the strategy that the death rate is not higher than NYC. Considering that the curve has flattened and herd immunity is projected in a couple of weeks, it is n…

NYC is clearly worse, but NYC is also vastly worse than any other place in the US. In terms of density and scale of international travel (or the lack of both), Sweden is more comparable to Maryland or Virginia. Virginia, with 8.5 million people, has had less than 900 deaths. DC, which is only a bit smaller than Stockholm and similar in density, has had just 328 deaths, compared to over 1,200 in Stockholm

Correct about Sweden. We can compare Sweden to Switzerland (8.5 million vs 10 mil pop in Sweden). Switz has 1870 deaths, Sweden 3460. Sweden is far worse per capita than it's small northern euro neighbors too (actually deaths per million, Sweden, then Norway, Finland, Denmark are (343) and (42, 51, 92). IHME [1] estimates Sweden will have 5760 deaths, Switz 1935. Correcting for relative populations (10/8.5) Switz's 1935 * 10/8.5 = 2275 roughly expected.

I'm not sure why people have seized on Sweden as doing it right, but they will kill about 3.5k extra people compared to Switz (excess deaths). Compared to their northern neighbors they about 8x worse.

All this info at https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/ except projections.

[1] https://covid19.healthdata.org/switzerland

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#204

Post by nn35 »

sterlind wrote: post #47

Both sides: courts are supposed to apply the law to the facts. Lawyers guide judges in their arguments, and the court weighs each one, resolving conflicts through tests and precedent. Read the text of the decision before bringing politics into it. IANAL, but browsing the text: - The ruling cites the Wisconsin constitution. - Governors can issue emergency orders (and maybe rules?) effective for 150 days. - There's a d…

Would you still think it was judicial activism if it had the opposite effect on policy?

If "emergency" is vaguely defined, it seems completely within the purview of the courts to clarify it.

Nice summary btw.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#205

Post by ikiris »

jb775 wrote: post #178
tfehring wrote: post #150

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The baseline mortality rate for an 80 year old is about 0.5% per month. The mortality rate for an 80 year old with coronavirus is about 15%, with nearly all deaths occurring within a month. So treating all deaths in coronavirus patients as being caused by coronavirus would only overstate the true case fatality rate by 3% or so. The ratio is similar for younger ages. Not sure why Joe Rogan or Elon Musk’s opinion would…

The glaring omission here is that this 80 year old with coronavirus could have had stage IV cancer, and pneumonia, and the Bubonic plague, but the official cause of death is being considered "Covid". And considering the 80 year old is probably broke at this point of their medical journey, the hospitals have the option to either get paid nothing, or can claim yet another Covid death so they get the $13k-$39k per-patie…

You seem to not know how covid works (or medicine and/or medical examination) and that's fine, but please don't use your ignorance to sway others on subjects you have no knowledge in.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#206

Post by roenxi »

sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

> The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. That cultural chicken has now come home to roost.

That cultural chicken is still a massive net win; I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously.

Pretty much no crisis since the founding of America has "these people have too much personal independence and power" been more of a problem than part of the solution. Indeed, most of the times independence was diagnosed as a problem the solution was worse than the disease. The government-coordinated response to 9/11 remains substantially more damaging than any other aspect of that fiasco.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#207

Post by bosswipe »

hanging wrote: post #202
bosswipe wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wisconsin's legislature passed a law that gives the Department of Health the authority to issue orders in the face of a public health emergency. It is because of extreme partisanship that the extremely partisan Wisconsin court has now struck down that law in a blatant act of judicial activism to get the political result they wanted.

extremely partisan Wisconsin court has now struck down that law in a blatant act of judicial activism "Extreme partisanship" is more evident in your complaint about a "striking down" that didn't happen of a "law" that doesn't exist . The Court upheld existing law and struck down executive actions that violated it. By the way, Supreme Court justices here in Wisconsin are elected on statewide ballots, not nominated for…

Wisconsin Statue 252.02 does exist.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#208

Post by fiblye »

mgleason_3 wrote: post #165
AbrahamParangi wrote: post #142

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If it makes you feel any better, the lockdowns probably don't matter in the limit. 1) Individual behavior changed prior to the lockdowns (people don't want to die) 2) The government appears generally too incompetent to figure out how to lower R0 low enough to eradicate the virus 3) Since everyone can see that the govt is fucking this up, the marginal utility of hard lockdowns becomes less than the marginal pain. Some…

Hacker News REALLY needs to get rid of the damn down-voting because it's causing HN to become little more than an echo chamber. In its place, people can make use of "reply" to air their viewpoint.

I really have to agree with you here.

Ever since the pandemic started to ramp up, downvotes and hidden comments did as well. I'll see more greyed out comments in a single thread these days than I used to see all day just a year or two ago. Even I've gotten into a bad habit of using it, and I'm trying to avoid it.

If a person posts something intentionally inflammatory or clearly just wants to pick a fight, the flag button works just fine.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#209

Post by simonh »

dgzl wrote: post #190
sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

>But what about the US? If all government is corrupt, if all taxes are sin, if all leaders on the other side are traitors to the cause, the people will never respect those in charge. >The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. I'm strongly against big government, disagree with most R's and D's, will gladly…

Brit here. By and large we have the rights we want. Some rights we have voluntarily abrogated in order to meet what we believe to be more important responsibilities. These are legitimate decisions for a democratic nation to make.

Re: Wisconsin Supreme Court strikes down stay-at-home order that closed businesses

#210

Post by Gibbon1 »

roenxi wrote: post #206
sandworm101 wrote: post #128

This is where culture really matters. Almost every jurisdiction in the western world has faced this issue. Governments are issuing orders that, when push comes to shove, might not be 100% legitimate in the eyes of a court. In most countries that hasn't mattered. People acknowledge the covid problem and are obeying the "orders" despite them, perhaps, not having legal teeth. This requires trust. Like the current politi…

> The people don't obey the "orders" nor follow advice. Then they wrap themselves in the flag and actively work against the measures in the name of freedom. That cultural chicken has now come home to roost. That cultural chicken is still a massive net win; I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriousl…

> That cultural chicken is still a massive net win; I'd still much rather live in America and get coronavirus rather than live in China and get black-bagged someday because of my refusal to take authorities seriously.

I can guess what color your skin is already.

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