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Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

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Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#201
post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't you think to be considered a "sport" there needs to be an element of physical aptitude? Poker and chess are both games of skill, but I wouldn't call them sports.

In a this ESPN article on Fabiano Caruana, they noted "In October 2018, Polar, a U.S.-based company that tracks heart rates, monitored chess players during a tournament and found that 21-year-old Russian grandmaster Mikhail Antipov had burned 560 calories in two hours of sitting and playing chess -- or roughly what Roger Federer would burn in an hour of singles tennis." https://www.espn.com/espn/story/_/id/27593253/w…

That doesn’t address OP’s point at all.

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#202
post #108
post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Luck exists

Dude has some amazing luck then, to be able to pull this off twice against seasoned championship drivers, Wow! https://twitter.com/RaceOfChampions/status/10870836895221555...

Yeah, seasoned, with no motivation whatsoever...

I have beaten a seasoned champion in a Rally competition a couple of times (means I arrived before him), but he won the championship that year, I was in the lower 20% of the rankings at the end of the season

Being a champion is not about the single performance, is about consistency over the years

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#203

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've driven on tracks on touring days, so not exactly a race driver, but still. the lack of proper feedback from g forces make harder on sims to understand what the car is doing. a good wheel can help since you get back part of the wheel loading/unloading and at least you know how to navigate the last 20 meters of corner entry properly, giving enough warning of when the front is letting to, but for what the rear is g…

I would disagree that it's impossible to tell what the rear's doing in a sim. I've never driven a real vehicle outside of a few times in a low-powered kart, so I don't know what it's like in that scenario. I assume there's some physical feedback through the seat about what the car's doing. But when I'm driving in VR in iRacing or Assetto Corsa I can tell when the rear is about to step out. It can't be track-based mem…

> driving in VR

ah well that's something I never tried; do you have the same sensation of control while driving on a standard monitor?

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#204
I've tracked my car for 5 years, then started racing for the past 5 years, and moved up to pro racing two years ago competing in Pirelli World Challenge and MX-5 Cup.

The simulators today are fantastic. The skills you learn in the simulator are 100% transferable to real life, and they happen without you having to think.

I went 9 years without using a sim and then two years ago started using it.

What gets transferred immediately are how you turn the steering wheel, catching the car in slides, and your gas pedal application while this is happening.

People often forget that our bodies are complex operating systems and they are operating distinctly. There is plenty of documentation that shows mirroring for knowledge transfer works, and when you use a sim the habits that you develop are available subconciously to you.

I'll give you two examples, the first is at my last race in Global MX-5 Cup at Laguna Seca. At the start of the race on the opening lap I was going through the corkscrew and got hit at the apex of the right hand corner. The car immediately went into a large slide because of how much steering input I had. I immediately started to correct with both steering input and gas pedal application. I had to correct the two slides to save the car. Immediately upon impact my body was doing what I needed to do, it was completely subconscious, so much so that the only conscious thought I had was, wowee fun, just like the simulator. There was no fear, despite the fact that the slide was massive and I was likely to hit the wall if I didn't catch it.

The second happened a couple of months earlier. I was testing at Sonoma in my BMW m235ir for a Pirelli race. I was going out on old tires, that we were going to swap for fresh ones at the next session. Going through the double right hair pin, I applied a bit too much throttle, car started to slide, I was correcting, but under corrected and went back to full throttle too soon. The car spun, hit the wall, caused $10,000 in damage. The reason that happened was whenever I played the sim I always kept my foot in the gas. Just trying to save the car and have fun. Then I realized, that when I use the simulator I can't approach it from a "fun" mentality, because my brain is remembering what I'm doing. I have to treat it like real life, or I will do something stupid in the car.

There are certainly differences between how a real car handles and a simulator handles, but the skills are the same and what you are really honing is the ability to control the car which is completely transferable. The brake points are very transferrable so it is a great way to push yourself in a simulated practice to get ready for a real race. Learning the track is obviously a benefit.

iRacing has done a fantastic job at all of the above. Coming from a tech background I'm actually blown away by the realism and how much it teaches you transferrable skills.

If you take one of the top 5 people in iRacing that's never been in a car before and put them into a race car they will be quick. This is because everything that will be happening they have already trained for. They won't have fear because everything will feel the same. As long as you don't have fear, and have the underlying skill, subconsciously you will do what you need to.

The reverse isn't as true. Being quick in real life doesn't mean that you will be fast in the simulator. This is simply because it can't replicate the physics 100%. In iRacing it is very sensitive to understeer as you enter a corner, where in real life you can get the car to slide a bit more with some hard inputs into the steering wheel.

But overall I would say it is a 90%+ effective tool, so much so, that anyone who isn't using one in pro racing today, is really at a disadvantage.

The other thing that is critical to racing is practice. Any sport you take seriously the more time you spend doing it the better you will be. Unfortunately racing is extremely expensive, and so no one but the absolute pros can spend as much time as they would like in a race car. Being able to hop on the simulator, at any time, is amazing to help you continue your training and stay sharp during the offseason, or at times like this when all racing is pretty much cancelled.

Anyone who is saying that this isn't transferrable is simply incorrect. They've already taken pure sim racers and put them behind the wheel of real race cars and those people did phenomenally well.

There is more strain physically in a real car, g-forces, breathing, pulse will be higher, but these things are much easier to train for.

There is a reduced amount of feedback certainly, one of the biggest issues for me is not getting a great feel for the brake pedal, but this is where muscle memory comes in, you keep doing laps and refining and your muscles will recognize what inputs you need even though the g-forces aren't there.

Furthermore I tried VR iRacing for the first time and it was insane how amazing the VR is. It is completely life like, just missing the rush of air around me.

I was at Road Atlanta doing laps and went through the last corner on my first lap. You come down a massive hill, hit the compression, and turn right into the fastest corner of the track where you also have walls on both sides that are very close. This is not the corner to fuck up. There is tremendous g-forces in this corner in real life. On the way down the hill I feel fine in VR. The second I hit the compression I get dizzy. This is because my eyes and everything around me is recognizing this part of the track and my body is tensing because it remembers real life. But my body isn't feeling the compression. So the difference between what my eyes see, my brain interrupts, and the lack of sensation in my body is making my brain go haywire and makes me dizzy.

The first time I just thought it was odd. The second lap same exact thing happens. The third lap again. It happened every time I had to take the VR off because I started getting a headache.

Anyway those are my real life stories. If there is anyone on here racing or tracking their car I highly recommend they get a great sim and install it in their house. It will be a lot cheaper than tracking and infinitely less expensive than racing and it will tremendously improve your skills.

This is probably less relevant for top of the sport racers, but if you watch today's youngest F1 athletes all of them do sim racing and all of them are extremely quick. Specifically Lando Norris and Max Verstappen.

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#205
post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dude has some amazing luck then, to be able to pull this off twice against seasoned championship drivers, Wow! https://twitter.com/RaceOfChampions/status/10870836895221555...

Yeah, seasoned, with no motivation whatsoever... I have beaten a seasoned champion in a Rally competition a couple of times (means I arrived before him), but he won the championship that year, I was in the lower 20% of the rankings at the end of the season Being a champion is not about the single performance, is about consistency over the years

he won the championship that year, I was in the lower 20% of the rankings at the end of the season

What was the cause of that? You mention "no motivation whatsoever" but I know nothing about the racing world or what kind of preparation-mental or otherwise-goes into being a competitive driver; what does that mean here in terms of how it affected the results so disparately for the two of you at the end of your season (not sure if "season" is the proper word for your sport, apologies if there's a more correct term), and how would you compare it to Enzo Bonito's two victories?

I know very little about the racing world other than having an appreciation for the mechanics and engineers who create such marvelous machines, but otherwise I know absolutely nothing about what it means to be a racer, if that makes sense.

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#206

I love the initiative, but I disagree with the paragraph saying: "That’s obviously not the case with other sports." Esports cyclist racing is growing and it translates almost 1:1 real-life skills.

That's hard to compare with but honestly difficult to even call that an e-sport. It's more like a remote sport?

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#207
post #204

I've tracked my car for 5 years, then started racing for the past 5 years, and moved up to pro racing two years ago competing in Pirelli World Challenge and MX-5 Cup. The simulators today are fantastic. The skills you learn in the simulator are 100% transferable to real life, and they happen without you having to think. I went 9 years without using a sim and then two years ago started using it. What gets transferred…

what’s the ongoing costs on the bmw like? i assume mx-5 cup is not hugely different from spec miata, which i race now.

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#208
post #204

I've tracked my car for 5 years, then started racing for the past 5 years, and moved up to pro racing two years ago competing in Pirelli World Challenge and MX-5 Cup. The simulators today are fantastic. The skills you learn in the simulator are 100% transferable to real life, and they happen without you having to think. I went 9 years without using a sim and then two years ago started using it. What gets transferred…

Do you have a recommendation for a beginner VR setup?

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#209
post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Before I'd actually done any real driving, I thought Gran Turismo 4 with a Logitech wheel and pedals was the real deal. Then I started driving and realized it's not quite there. It certainly taught me about proper corner entry, but not the visceral parts of it. Even good simulators are like those "virtual rollercoasters". Not quite the same. And like you said, it's very much the "I can't feel it in the seat, I can't…

I understand what you mean. There's an incredible amount of tactile information in the real world, and I can't help feeling that there's probably almost as much information flowing in as audio or visual (that we as humans can process at any one instant), but I have been unable to find anything to back up my wild hypothesis.

People have used stimulus arrays attached to the back to "replace" eyesight. It would be interesting to compare the number of nerves coming from the different senses, and how much neuronal area the senses get as the signals are aggregated.

Re: Pro drivers are competing with gamers after F1 and Nascar canceled races

#210

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok so why are there not upside down tracks in formula 1 this just seems like the obvious next step.

We should just go full Trackmania

I would pay to watch a remote-piloted robotic Trackmania if there were good enough systems to transfer track feel to the remote controls.
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