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Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

courdecassation.fr

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Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#201

Post by hnewsshadowbans »

With Uber want to work? Press a button. Want to take a break? Press a button. Want to work again? Press a button. Take as long a break as you want. Work as long as you want. No timecards. No obnoxious coworkers. No intrusive questions. No douchebag bosses making your life a living hell. In what other job do you have this sort of freedom without the instability of traditional selfemployment? What more could you ask for? Now it'll all be ruined for everybody because of the greed and entitlement of a few.

Its side hustle money for bored college kids with some free time. They NEVER promised anything more. They're not forcing you to work for them. If you're a a single mother raising 5 kids on Uber alone you're doing it wrong.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#202

Post by d1zzy »

bitxbitxbitcoin wrote: post #197
andrewla wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the strongest argument against this point of view is that the drivers can opt to work for multiple car services to get a handle on their price structures. It's certainly possible for a traditional employer to allow that arrangement, but you have to admit it is an uncommon thing. It's much more analogous to a contractor working for a general contractor -- if I'm a plumber I can take gigs from multiple general…

But do general contractors in your example punish plumbers if they are found to be working for multiple general contractors?

When does that happen? Almost every Uber/Lyft driver I've seen lately has both logos on their car...

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#203

Post by canidiarus »

zuminator wrote: post #196
m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

To me the main reason why this is not analogous to Uber is that with Uber, the bidder does not set the rate, Uber does.

Can't drivers can deny the fare without penalty if the work offer doesn't pay what they want?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#204

Post by bluntfang »

def8cefe wrote: post #187
ElFitz wrote: post #181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Taxis in Paris have a reputation (warranted or not) of refusing customers based on destination.

It's pretty common everywhere. Imagine waiting (potentially hours) queued in a taxi stand for a fare, only to get somebody with a $5 trip who's rude and smells like they haven't showered in a decade. None of the people who make the taxi regulations (or the passengers who invent their own in the back seat) would accept that person if it was their own car, but taxi drivers are seen as contemptible and unworthy of basic…

>Imagine waiting (potentially hours) queued in a taxi stand for a fare, only to get somebody with a $5 trip who's rude and smells like they haven't showered in a decade.

I agree, we should pay taxi drivers a living wage so that this can't happen.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#205

Post by CriticalCathed »

as300 wrote: post #58
curiousgal wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is a win-win situation, the majority of those junior devs are from North Africa and they still make way more than they would have back home.

The losers are the local people who get fewer opportunities as a result. Not saying it's good or bad, just putting it out there.

I'll take the hit and say it's bad. A great purpose of nation states is to enrich and protect the lives of those who are from those respective nations, often and usually at the cost of others. A bunch of non-governmental entities undermining the nation state is undeniably untenable -- both cannot thrive.

People, especially the rich, often pretend we don't live in nation states and that the global nation is here -- but it very much isn't. I think we ought to be afraid of what happens when nation states dissolve. The ultimate result doesn't seem to be unification but disunion.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#206

Post by e40 »

ijidak wrote: post #185
m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

Is employee and 1099 the same? Because almost every 1099 contractor is restricted in the ways listed. For example, I was doing work for a Digital Marketing company as a software developer. I could not: 1. Take their clients 2. I had to accept their rate or just decide to not work with them 3. I accepted their terms and conditions for jobs allocated to me from them #2 and #3 seem to be more of an issue of negotiating…

> If I drive for Uber, Lyft, and whoever else wants my services, am I not building my clientele?

I seriously doubt you, as a driver for Uber or Lyft, could legally make deals to drive people you find via your work for those companies, outside being assigned with the apps for those companies.

Anyone know what the contract with Uber/Lyft says?

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#208

Post by username90 »

awb wrote: post #116
boudin wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The main differnce is that the handymem can easily look for other customers elsewhere to find an alternative job. Uber drivers don't have this choice. They can't do a counter-offer neither. Technically, as you said, they can refuse. In practice, the power that Uber has on his drivers limits those choices a lot.

The inability to negotiate is the key point. On the point about choice, there are areas where drivers can drive for Uber or Lyft though so some drivers do have choice.

Just because the process is automated doesn't mean that no negotiation is taking place. Uber drivers negotiate all the time, every time they shut down the app due to rates being too low at the moment they negotiate. So Uber is forced to set rates at levels where they have enough drivers and enough passengers. It isn't like a job where if you just stop working they will fire you, you can drop in and out of uber whenever and however you want as long as it isn't in the middle of a ride.

I mean, imagine if a McDonalds worker could just say "I don't feel like working for $10 right now, I'm going home!", and then just leave in the middle of a shift. Then the next day he sees that Burger king pays more, so he goes and work for them that day for a couple of hours, after which McDonalds increased their rates so he goes back there and work a few hours. Sounds like insanity to you? Well yeah, because it is insanity if employees could act like that!

Uber drivers are not employees, end of story. Uber doesn't have any power over them as is, normal workers have a contract which is worth a lot to them, you have no such contract with Uber as it is trivial to get the permit to drive for Uber, Uber drivers are not afraid of Uber suddenly firing them, they can go in and out of their role how much they want.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#209

Post by pishpash »

gridspy wrote: post #121
m11a wrote: post #96

> The criteria for self-employment include the possibility of building up one's own clientele, the freedom to set one's own rates, and the freedom to set the terms and conditions for providing one's services. Immediately I'd seem to agree with this statement. I think of typical self-employment businesses; hairdressers, freelance developers, etc and this seems to apply. You can set your own rate and your own terms, ev…

Your shed example is not the same as the Uber example. As described by the court, the driver is not told in advance where the customer is going. They are told exactly how to drive there, and the rate is decided by Uber. It would be the same as you saying "I want you to build something on my site. Bring your hammer, tools and materials. Call me to find out where. I'll pay you about $20/hr"

If so, then the "employment relationship" would last only as long as the job. When employment is specific to one job, it's a contracted job, which is a much better criterion than whatever France came up with. There is no expectation that either side will come back for more.

Re: Highest French court reclassifies Uber drivers as employees

#210

Post by avianlyric »

hnewsshadowbans wrote: post #201

With Uber want to work? Press a button. Want to take a break? Press a button. Want to work again? Press a button. Take as long a break as you want. Work as long as you want. No timecards. No obnoxious coworkers. No intrusive questions. No douchebag bosses making your life a living hell. In what other job do you have this sort of freedom without the instability of traditional selfemployment? What more could you ask fo…

> Its side hustle money for bored college kids with some free time.

Except it isn’t. If it was then Uber wouldn’t be trying to setup vehicle leasing schemes for their drivers.

If it was true then I would actually meet some college kid drivers, rather that 30 year old migrants.

If you’re a single mother raising 5 kids on Uber, then you probably have no choice. Telling them they’re “doing it wrong” won’t feed their kids. It’s just a callus relegation of someone you find undesirable and have no wish to help.

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