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To get good, go after the metagame

commoncog.com

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Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#201

Post by porknubbins »

roel_v wrote: post #189
Thriptic wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more complicated than that. Largely, it just seems that way because most people never bother to understand the rules past a cursory Google whereas big companies have teams of very experienced regulatory professionals from the agencies themselves who are all about it and therefore know every way to tweak inputs so that they trigger certain regulations rather than others. I was working on a regulatory compliance p…

This is so true. I got a law degree as a hobby while working as a software developer. The actual substantive knowledge I got from that hasn't been very useful so far (apart from the occasional online flex...), but the skills I learned to do what you describe have been a real USP for me. Now law school didn't explicitly teach me those skills; there was never a course where someone taught 'how to go deep on any subject…

As a lawyer I had the reverse experience, programming taught me to go deep. Plenty of mediocre lawyers don’t chase depth of understanding to the nth degree, but trying to understand, debug, and work in a new codebase taught me detective work at a new level that absolutely cannot be replaced with bs or the program won’t work.

Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#202

Post by mangoman »

streb-lo wrote: post #79
mangoman wrote: post #41

Interesting. I'm familiar with the meta as it relates to gaming (I follow SC2 pretty closely, though I basically never play anymore). I am curious to explore what the meta is as it relates to building web apps, or building software systems. I guess in web apps, the meta has evolved away from stateful and towards stateless applications, rigid to ephemeral infrastructure, and away from big kitchen sink frameworks towar…

You're using 'meta' as a synonym for popular. Metagame is the 'game outside the game' ie in rock paper scissors the game is trivial the metagame involves guessing what the opponent will pick. Meta-software-engineering would be things outside of your software stack that affect the overall process. People, sleep patterns, office layouts, commute time, corporate culture etc.

I think you're correct about the meta of software engineering. People, Remote Work, Culture hacks are metagaming attributes of building a company or startup.

I was thinking more specifically about building web apps (or software systems). I think there's something there as well

Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#203

Post by X6S1x6Okd1st »

csallen wrote: post #187
WhompingWindows wrote: post #159

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree slightly. The metagame is relevant whenever you're facing opponents of similar skill. If you're way better than your opponent, you can use highly sub-optimal, non-meta strategies and win through sheer experience and skill. For instance, I could kill 50% of Starcraft opponents lower than me by building only one unit and even announcing which unit I'll mass up. However, if you're making a similar number of e…

This is a good point. I played semi-high level StarCraft for a while (high masters, low grandmasters), and strategic decisions based on the metagame certainly won and lost me many games. That said, the GP has a point, too. I probably would've been better served working on my mechanics and fundamentals if I wanted to advance to the next level.

If you played against grandmasters your fundamentals were likely extremely good relative to most players

Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#204

Post by m3kw9 »

So in the investing game the actual game is buying and selling and the Meta game is to do good diligence. I would say for most things the meta game is obvious. For programming, meta game is learn the API and different patterns as the language evolve.

Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#205

Post by ph0rque »

This is a really great article, and something I've been slowly realizing over the last few months.

I only wish he would explore the concept of playing your own meta in order to reach goals that are important to you (and maybe no-one else): hacking the system, so to speak. FIRE (financial independence/retire early) is an increasingly popular meta that does this.

Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#207

Post by Spellman »

novok wrote: post #161
Proziam wrote: post #3

Getting good in almost all games is based on understanding and mastering the fundamentals to the extent that you can make consistently correct (or at least a high degree of 'correctness') decisions based on them. This is true for all esports titles, and probably all games in general. Mastering the fundamentals will make you 'good' to a level that very few people ever reach. It's not until you reach a level where ever…

I think it depends on the game too. In Dota 2 (and probably LoL) the balance between heros can change significantly per patch, and a lot of winning is having good hero picks compared to the other team. If you don't keep up with the meta, then your win rate will go down, and this is true for amateurs and the pros.

I would argue the meta matters a lot less than you may think even in MOBAs.

At most levels, just being very very good at a few characters, even if they're off-meta picks, will do better than someone who picks on-meta and doesn't have a good fundamental skill with the champion.

Now, most players keep a pool of champions they have solid (or at least better) fundamentals so that as the meta shifts they can fall back to others. Additionally there are cross-champ skills like strategic considerations that can carry you.

It's also weird because in MOBAs the updates literally change the balance of the game, so by some definitions this actually changes the fundamentals which causes the meta to have to react. So really most players are chasing relearning the fundamentals (oh geez Zeus is nerfed into uselessness!).

Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#208

Post by Spellman »

rifung wrote: post #179
thereare5lights wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree with that. It goes back to > It's not until you reach a level where everyone around you has a mastery of the fundamentals, that the meta comes into play. At any given MMR bracket, everyone around you has a similar mastery of the fundamentals so the meta is relevant. However, put someone with the fundamentals of a 6k+ MMR player into a 3 or even 4k match and they'll demolish everyone else even with a dis…

I believe you're in agreement. The original comment said > It's not until you reach a level where everyone around you has a mastery of the fundamentals, that the meta comes into play. and you said > At any given MMR bracket, everyone around you has a similar mastery of the fundamentals so the meta is relevant. which refutes the original comment. > However, put someone with the fundamentals of a 6k+ MMR player into a…

Perhaps the best use of the meta, as noted in the article, is to help guide you to understanding what are the fundamentals to learn, and they help filter down what fundamentals you need to learn.

Zeus is never picked? Great! Don't need to learn that kit. Or perhaps digging into why Zeus isn't picked can help inform why another character is more useful especially in conjunction with others in a team.

Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#209

Post by sergioro »

A somehow related quote from Paul Halmos (https://youtu.be/LwMcz1Yh8tc?t=1506): "I would choose depth over breath of knowledge every time. I think if you know something very well and keep try to know it better, then you will expand to other subjects, and the deeper down you go the broader the near by becomes."

Re: To get good, go after the metagame

#210

Post by gowld »

ksdale wrote: post #132
ErikAugust wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think this is true in professional ball sports in sort of the inverse. Once you reach the highest level, then the focus is once again on defense. Defense wins championships.

I played a lot of American football growing up and so heard the quote "Defense wins championships" very regularly and I always disagreed. Teams lose games all the time while holding the other team to a very low score, but almost no one ever loses if they put up 50 points. But then again, I played offense...

Teams also win all to time while a low score and lose if they allow 50pts.
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