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Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

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Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#201

Post by umvi »

jrochkind1 wrote: post #168
umvi wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Democracy is cool, until we look at companies. Then it's dictatorships as the norm. Democracy is a horribly inefficient system of government. Its only redeeming quality is that it seems effective at (so far) deterring tyranny and abuse of power. However, like I said, it's horribly inefficient. Changes that are easy to make under a dictatorship can be extremely hard to make under a democracy. Not exactly a quality y…

Some have experienced egregious tyranny and abuse of power in the workplace, and might think it is worth deterring there too.

IMO with companies, the stakes are not so high that democracies (i.e. unions) need to be implemented right from inception. If a company demonstrates repeated abuse of employees, then sure, retrofit it with a union to keep future abuses in check.

But unions have several significant downsides too, and for companies with a clean record, strong leaders with a vision, good pay and benefits, high morale, etc. I don't see any benefit to encumbering such with a union.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#202

Post by Balero »

duxup wrote: post #115
_sbrk wrote: post #68

I worked in a union shop once, as a summer intern. Every day, we were told to be in the break room at 7:59am to begin promptly at the 8am bell. By 4:30 or 4:45pm, everyone was back in there, waiting for the clock to hit 5pm. One day, I needed to connect two PCs together, which was approved by boss as they would be isolated from the network. So, being the diligent type, I went off and found some network cards and a ca…

My experience with US unions was similar. They're just another layer of bureaucracy that is NOT required to respond to you as an individual in any way. I've had lots of poor experience with US unions protecting the lowest denominator at the expense of everyone else. They seem to focus on very specific rules that came up in specific situations applied to everything possible and end up just creating a web that is no di…

The experience I have had with UK unions is very different from this, and the other descriptions of unions in the US.

I only had a few interactions with them (in a union capacity, the rep was a normal worker as well). These were things like: Getting some new equipment for the break room (kettle and mugs), pushing some new health and safety process (developed alongside the company), and then the yearly meeting, which was along the lines of: "We tried to get X% pay increase, but we ended up only getting X-y% increase. We're organising events for this charity this year. If you want to get involved please get in touch".

I get the feeling that, in general, in Europe unions and companies work together with a co-operative relationship. Whereas in the US there are many that have a more antagonistic relationship, which is just weird to me.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#203

Post by notSupplied »

Folks should really read this article to get more context on Kickstarter's history with unionization, it is truly bananas and not what you think:

https://slate.com/technology/2019/09/kickstarter-turmoil-uni...

- The first thing that jumped out at me was that the primary spark of conflict was NOT compensation or working conditions.

- The main conflict was around a Kickstarter project "Always Punch Nazis", a project that gathered a few laughs among Kickstarter's largely liberal staff + management. When they faced right-wing political pressure to de-platform this project, since it technically violates their "do not incite violence" ToS, it triggered a ideological schism within the company.

- Unionization seems to be largely about placing this kind of decision in the hands of the employees. This is somewhat consistent with Kickstarter's history of activism.

- However, it's pretty uncharted territory here: Unionization that is not primarily motivated by distribution of wealth, but for the political soul of the company.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#204

Post by Mangalor »

joncrane wrote: post #109
mason55 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unions, in my experience, exist to help keep mediocre, unmotivated employees employed. One has no incentive to excel, as promotions are based on years "served", much like prison. There is nothing inherent in unions that make them operate like that.

It's something inherent in human nature, unfortunately.

A union is simply an agreement between workers and management. Agreements can be modified to prevent such faults when both parties enter in good faith.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#205

Post by legohead »

good luck to them. I was part of a union and joined the negotiations board. come bargaining time, I was probably the most stressed I have ever been at a company ever. you learn just how little the company actually cares about you and everyone else.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#206

Post by barryrandall »

exabrial wrote: post #8

They'd be wise to learn from history: There are many people willing do your job for cheaper, most of them in other countries working for smaller wages.

Rockwell Collins, which became United Technologies, which became Raytheon, who was responsible for the 737 MAX's MCAS software and outsourced it to a low wage country, agrees.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#207

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

aty268 wrote: post #199

Absolutely pathetic for both sides. If you don't like your white collar tech job, go somewhere else. It's not factory work where you're paid way less to do the same thing wherever you go. You make yourselves and your company look weak in doing this. This is why the rest of the United States thinks tech is full of a bunch of entitled pricks.

Just because you work in tech doesn't mean you can't get exploited. And just "go somewhere else" isn't possible for everyone.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#208

Post by crmrc114 »

ditonal wrote: post #64
echelon wrote: post #3

I really don't understand this. A career in software is one of the most pampered and lucrative ones I can think of. Due to the shortage of software engineers, we can go anywhere and get a job instantly. The only downside I can think of is ageism, but then again, I have colleagues in their 50s and 60s where I work. But I suppose this isn't universal. (I'm in Atlanta and we have a lot of older workers. Age doesn't seem…

Why do people on HN constantly claim that companies are right to consider “a false negative is better than a false positive”, act like insane interview gauntlets are normal and desired, AND claim that people can easily change jobs? It’s not true. I live in the SF Bay Area, have worked as a SWE for 10+ years including at top companies like Google, and changing jobs is NOT easy and I’m sick of the implication it is. Th…

Having family who worked with the UAW as well is IBEW I can tell you that Trade Unions in general are much better at 'holding a standard' and truly keeping their trade-craft respectable.

However the UAW, the most worthless crap joke of a union that makes other unions look bad. Basically just protects people who show up to work drunk or drive forklifts into walls. Forces companies to do insane things to fire people who do nothing but drag down the common output of a factory.

Be careful what you wish for and who you choose to put in control a good union can be a blessing... a bad union can be a millstone around your neck that ends up just being owned and, in the case of the UAW, is just a puppet for whatever company they serve.

I will say that when with Amazon I talked to some of my peers in Germany and I was fascinated with the labor protections that were provided to staff over there vs. the USA. They have some kind of thing, like a "labor council" or something. This group had to be consulted before lots of things could be done. In this case I think that it kept the Amazon buildings across the pond much happier than the ones in the USA. (Obviously this is simply my opinion)

I am on the fence, I was raised in a blue collar union family- even went to a little UAW brainwashing camp as a kid (Black Lake anyone?). My family members in IBEW have shown me that there are some very dedicated unions that do very good things and keep a trade from turning into a free market shitshow where everything becomes lowest bidder. If a union exists to truly protect staff AS WELL AS uphold high standards I think it will survive. When its just US V. Them...gimme` free crap, you are asking to be burned to the ground by competition.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#209

Post by dunkelheit »

echelon wrote: post #3

I really don't understand this. A career in software is one of the most pampered and lucrative ones I can think of. Due to the shortage of software engineers, we can go anywhere and get a job instantly. The only downside I can think of is ageism, but then again, I have colleagues in their 50s and 60s where I work. But I suppose this isn't universal. (I'm in Atlanta and we have a lot of older workers. Age doesn't seem…

Some things other than salary to consider: open-space offices, unpaid overtime, increase in managerial oversight (pointless standups etc.), erosion of work time/free time boundary, onerous non-compete/intellectual property clauses in employment contracts. Everybody is constantly bitching about those things but despite the claimed shortage of software engineers they seem to only get worse with time. I don't claim that unions are the solution but these problems don't seem to magically resolve themselves either.
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